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Delta Air Lines Pilot Strike Discussion Thread

Delta Air Lines Pilot Strike Discussion Thread

Old Oct 2, 2022, 5:18 pm
  #31  
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Originally Posted by hotturnip
And don't just blame unionization. Labor unions are a result of market forces. If you don't treat your employees properly, they're gonna want to unionize. It's just that over time they become ossified institutions just like corporations.
Not always the case. Continental's ramp agents were the highest paid in the industry. They still voted to unionize. So Continental outsourced them. A hard lesson learned by those ramp agents.

And I'd much rather be able to talk to management one on one if I have an issue rather than have to go though some union rep. I can speak for myself.
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Old Oct 2, 2022, 5:47 pm
  #32  
 
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Airline contract negotiations are under the Railway Labor Act of 1926.

The sole purpose of the RLA is to avoid disruptions in the nation's transportation system. The RLA requires that both parties maintain status quo during negotiations so no strikes, no lock-outs, no imposed new pay or work rules, and no work-to-rule campaigns.

The process to a strike, lockout, or other self-help measures is a long one that requires federal mediation, a proffer of binding arbitration, and the National Mediation Board must declare that the negotiations are at an impasse. At that point, a 30-day cooling off period is declared during which status quo is maintained. The mediator doesn't care if labor gets a fair contract or if management gets a reasonable one. His job is to prevent a disruption in service and eventually get an agreement. Neither labor nor management has control over when an impasse will be declared and the cooling off period begins. A mediator will often put negotiations on the shelf, for an indeterminate amount of time, if he feels that the parties aren't negotiating. That is the mediator's hammer to encourage movement. Near the end of the 30-day cooling off period, the mediator will call the parties back into mediation and it is here that many agreements are reached.

During status quo, there are few things that labor can do to put pressure on management to negotiate. One is informational pickets, which we've seen recently. Another is a strike vote with a very strong showing. Management frequently seeks to delay and agreement because almost all agreements result in increased cost of labor.

It is what it is, not because it makes sense to negotiate in this fashion; but because this is what results from the requirements of the RLA.
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Old Oct 2, 2022, 6:40 pm
  #33  
 
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Originally Posted by readywhenyouare
Not always the case. Continental's ramp agents were the highest paid in the industry. They still voted to unionize. So Continental outsourced them. A hard lesson learned by those ramp agents.

And I'd much rather be able to talk to management one on one if I have an issue rather than have to go though some union rep. I can speak for myself.
Is your position that the only thing employees should be able to do if they don't like their treatment/compensation/etc. is quit?

If you think delta pilots are already way overpaid, why don't you go work as a Delta pilot? If it's not worth it to you, maybe they're not as overpaid as you claim...
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Old Oct 2, 2022, 6:56 pm
  #34  
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Originally Posted by jetsfan92588
Is your position that the only thing employees should be able to do if they don't like their treatment/compensation/etc. is quit?

If you think delta pilots are already way overpaid, why don't you go work as a Delta pilot? If it's not worth it to you, maybe they're not as overpaid as you claim...

Resigning and seeking better employment is exactly what 88.4% of the US population does if they are unhappy with their job. Union behavior is like constantly going back to a restaurant you hate and demanding they improve the quality of their food/service and at a better price too. The vast majority of the population would simply take their money elsewhere.

And pilots and flight attendants know what they are signing up for when they apply at the airlines. Missing holidays, life events, etc is just part of the job but they sure like to complain about it. If you want a family life then flying is definitely a career you should avoid. Don't blame the airline for missing your child's piano recital. You're the one who prioritized flying over family.

Dive welders, loggers, etc make excellent money as well. That doesn't mean I want the job. But I'm not prohibited from crying foul when they threaten to disrupt life for millions of people. You have your opinion and I have mine.
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Old Oct 2, 2022, 7:16 pm
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Originally Posted by readywhenyouare
Resigning and seeking better employment is exactly what 88.4% of the US population does if they are unhappy with their job. Union behavior is like constantly going back to a restaurant you hate and demanding they improve the quality of their food/service and at a better price too. The vast majority of the population would simply take their money elsewhere.

And pilots and flight attendants know what they are signing up for when they apply at the airlines. Missing holidays, life events, etc is just part of the job but they sure like to complain about it. If you want a family life then flying is definitely a career you should avoid. Don't blame the airline for missing your child's piano recital. You're the one who prioritized flying over family.

Dive welders, loggers, etc make excellent money as well. That doesn't mean I want the job. But I'm not prohibited from crying foul when they threaten to disrupt life for millions of people. You have your opinion and I have mine.
The issues at Delta are exactly what you pointed out. The pilots want the quality of life they had when they signed up for the job. The problem is not pay. Its restoration of that quality of life. Its good you support them in that goal.
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Old Oct 2, 2022, 7:22 pm
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Jeff767
The issues at Delta are exactly what you pointed out. The pilots want the quality of life they had when they signed up for the job. The problem is not pay. Its restoration of that quality of life. Its good you support them in that goal.
Could you provide specifics? I was the under the impression that everything regarding their job was covered by the contract they negotiated. The contract doesn't expire, it just becomes amendable. So they are still working under a contract they negotiated and agreed upon. Why would they have ever allowed a contract to be ratified that put them at a disadvantage now?

And when they signed up for the job is relative. A Delta pilot hired in 2022 certainly has a different outlook on quality of life at an airline vs when the most senior Delta pilot was hired.
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Old Oct 2, 2022, 8:38 pm
  #37  
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Originally Posted by readywhenyouare
Could you provide specifics? I was the under the impression that everything regarding their job was covered by the contract they negotiated. The contract doesn't expire, it just becomes amendable. So they are still working under a contract they negotiated and agreed upon. Why would they have ever allowed a contract to be ratified that put them at a disadvantage now?

And when they signed up for the job is relative. A Delta pilot hired in 2022 certainly has a different outlook on quality of life at an airline vs when the most senior Delta pilot was hired.
The current contract was negotiated in 2016. The airline industry has changed drastically since then, which is why you see new pilot contracts announced at US airlines nearly every week of late.
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Old Oct 2, 2022, 10:44 pm
  #38  
 
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Originally Posted by readywhenyouare
Resigning and seeking better employment is exactly what 88.4% of the US population does if they are unhappy with their job. Union behavior is like constantly going back to a restaurant you hate and demanding they improve the quality of their food/service and at a better price too. The vast majority of the population would simply take their money elsewhere.

And pilots and flight attendants know what they are signing up for when they apply at the airlines. Missing holidays, life events, etc is just part of the job but they sure like to complain about it. If you want a family life then flying is definitely a career you should avoid. Don't blame the airline for missing your child's piano recital. You're the one who prioritized flying over family.

Dive welders, loggers, etc make excellent money as well. That doesn't mean I want the job. But I'm not prohibited from crying foul when they threaten to disrupt life for millions of people. You have your opinion and I have mine.
Not entirely sure where you're getting that 88.4% number from. Statistics (albeit probably not accurately counted) that I've seen seem to suggest a significant percentage (way more than 12%) of the people who are unhappy in their job just stay there.

Right, pilots know what they're getting into. Pilots also know, as part of becoming a pilot, they are signing up with a union, so that union can (theoretically) advocate for their interests, and they have pretty good negotiating power (hence, why they're willing to take the job). They also know that contracts generally get renegotiated every x years, and that's their opportunity to renegotiate.

I actually don't have an opinion here. I just don't understand your opinion. If all the pilots quit, which is what you seem to be saying should be their only recourse, how does that cause more or less disruption to millions of people?
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Old Oct 2, 2022, 11:11 pm
  #39  
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Originally Posted by jetsfan92588
Not entirely sure where you're getting that 88.4% number from. Statistics (albeit probably not accurately counted) that I've seen seem to suggest a significant percentage (way more than 12%) of the people who are unhappy in their job just stay there.

Right, pilots know what they're getting into. Pilots also know, as part of becoming a pilot, they are signing up with a union, so that union can (theoretically) advocate for their interests, and they have pretty good negotiating power (hence, why they're willing to take the job). They also know that contracts generally get renegotiated every x years, and that's their opportunity to renegotiate.

I actually don't have an opinion here. I just don't understand your opinion. If all the pilots quit, which is what you seem to be saying should be their only recourse, how does that cause more or less disruption to millions of people?
The latest stats show that only 11.6% of the US population is unionzed. That's why I said 88.4% will just leave their job of they are that unhappy with it. Union membership has been on a steady decline. One could argue its members priced themselves out of the labor market. Oh, and not all airline pilots are in a union.
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Old Oct 3, 2022, 12:09 am
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Originally Posted by readywhenyouare
Resigning and seeking better employment is exactly what 88.4% of the US population does if they are unhappy with their job. Union behavior is like constantly going back to a restaurant you hate and demanding they improve the quality of their food/service and at a better price too. The vast majority of the population would simply take their money elsewhere..

Quite a bold thing to assume employees who join unions hate their jobs. As was pointed out to you previously, seniority is pretty much binding airline employees to their jobs. They cant pack up and move to another airline (or any job) at top of scale. Maybe they just want to have a bigger say in their benefit package. Have you criticized Delta for paying $5 million a year in dues to Airlines For America?
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Old Oct 3, 2022, 12:22 am
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Beetles
Quite a bold thing to assume employees who join unions hate their jobs. As was pointed out to you previously, seniority is pretty much binding airline employees to their jobs. They cant pack up and move to another airline (or any job) at top of scale. Maybe they just want to have a bigger say in their benefit package. Have you criticized Delta for paying $5 million a year in dues to Airlines For America?
Delta is a private for profit corporation. Their #1 priority is to make a profit and create value for their stakeholders. Why would I cirticize management for doing something that benefits the company? Delta is not in business to provide people with jobs. That's where the disconnect seems to be here. I'm simply not a fan of unions holding labor hostage. And I'm entitled to that opinion. I haven't told any of you that you're not entitled to a pro-labor opinion.
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Old Oct 3, 2022, 1:41 am
  #42  
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Originally Posted by readywhenyouare
The latest stats show that only 11.6% of the US population is unionzed. That's why I said 88.4% will just leave their job of they are that unhappy with it. Union membership has been on a steady decline. One could argue its members priced themselves out of the labor market. Oh, and not all airline pilots are in a union.
Why are we assuming that employees who are union members and unhappy with their jobs (or with the union) don't quit? Perhaps pilots are less likely to do so due to seniority after they've accumulated some time on the job at a particular employer, but the retirements taken early during COVID-19 are certainly examples of quitting even if there were incentives to do so.
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Old Oct 3, 2022, 4:40 am
  #43  
 
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Originally Posted by jetsfan92588
I actually don't have an opinion here. I just don't understand your opinion. If all the pilots quit, which is what you seem to be saying should be their only recourse, how does that cause more or less disruption to millions of people?
I'm not readywhenyouare, but I think I know what he's getting at here.

In my view, if these DL pilots weren't unionized the odds of every pilot walking out is close to zero. While some may for whatever reason, others will remain, if only because they rely on the source of income which can't be easily replaced elsewhere. DL can then try to hire other pilots to fill the openings and hope these "scabs" can bridge the gap until a more permanent labor solution is found. Of course, during these times and given the apparent pilot shortages, such a strategy may not be practical or feasible, which is why I suspect it's a good time to threaten a strike.

Personally, I don't like unions either--as a consumer they drive up my price per unit, inconvenience me and chip away at my piece of the pie as a shareholder. This of course doesn't mean I don't believe in labor's right to form a union, I do. I just view this as cost of doing business, where these DL pilots have an opportunity to leverage some concessions from the C-Suite. It would be irrational not to do so, because if the shoe were on the other foot, you can bet the C-Suite will be squeezing them.
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Old Oct 3, 2022, 5:33 am
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Visconti
I'm not readywhenyouare, but I think I know what he's getting at here.

In my view, if these DL pilots weren't unionized the odds of every pilot walking out is close to zero. While some may for whatever reason, others will remain, if only because they rely on the source of income which can't be easily replaced elsewhere. DL can then try to hire other pilots to fill the openings and hope these "scabs" can bridge the gap until a more permanent labor solution is found. Of course, during these times and given the apparent pilot shortages, such a strategy may not be practical or feasible, which is why I suspect it's a good time to threaten a strike.

Personally, I don't like unions either--as a consumer they drive up my price per unit, inconvenience me and chip away at my piece of the pie as a shareholder. This of course doesn't mean I don't believe in labor's right to form a union, I do. I just view this as cost of doing business, where these DL pilots have an opportunity to leverage some concessions from the C-Suite. It would be irrational not to do so, because if the shoe were on the other foot, you can bet the C-Suite will be squeezing them.
The airline industry is cyclical. For me, I'd rather have a steady and predictable salary throughout my career than these peaks and valleys. As it is now, you can expect to be paid like royalty during the good times and in the bad times you'll be lucky to not be furloughed for years.

I'm just using these numbers as an example. Maybe you make $400,000/year for six years but then get furloughed with no income for three years in a recession. I'd rather have a $200,000 steady income and not need such drastic hits during low times. And that would keep more pilots from being furloughed as well.

Not to mention that it seems today's pilots are not looking at the past. The flight engineer is gone, the navigator is gone, and the radio operator is gone. All replaced by automated systems. If they keep driving labor costs up it will only lead to faster adoption of single pilot operations and ultimately fully autonomous planes. Airbus has already demonstrated the A350 could be the flown single pilot in the future. Those who claim it can never happen are kidding themselves.
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Old Oct 3, 2022, 6:55 am
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Originally Posted by readywhenyouare
The airline industry is cyclical. For me, I'd rather have a steady and predictable salary throughout my career than these peaks and valleys. As it is now, you can expect to be paid like royalty during the good times and in the bad times you'll be lucky to not be furloughed for years.

I'm just using these numbers as an example. Maybe you make $400,000/year for six years but then get furloughed with no income for three years in a recession. I'd rather have a $200,000 steady income and not need such drastic hits during low times. And that would keep more pilots from being furloughed as well.
In all likelihood, what would happen if they decided to take the 200k steady income is that they'd get 200k during the good times, and still get furloughed during the bad times.

But it sounds like your opinion is that Delta, as a private business, should be able to do whatever they want to [increase shareholder value] and they have no other duty or obligation to anyone, including their employees or the flying public. But employees should not be able to do whatever they want to [increase their own salary] because they have a duty to other employees and to the flying public.
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