Delta Air Lines Pilot Strike Discussion Thread
#46
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Hotlanta.
Programs: I've gone underground!
Posts: 4,564
Hi,
I want to begin by saying that I agree that you should be entitled to your opinion. I'm personally ambivalent to labor unions... meaning, I wish they didn't exist and I wish they didn't take some of the tactics they take, but at the same time I understand why they exist, especially in a historical context.
I want to give a real-life scenario that I'd hope would fit in your model of how things should be. I'm a physician and have a unique skill set, making me difficult to replace. Because my employer was losing a lot of money, they decided to cut salaries, decrease time off/make working rules different from what I had signed up for. For example, we have fewer equipment techs who get the anesthesia machines set up, and that work now falls onto me. I kept going to management and was ignored... my contract kept automatically rolling over, and I kept being promised how next year would be better. I finally quit in August... and guess what? I haven't been replaced, and they're even shorter now, and services are being curtailed because it's not easy to replace my skillset.
So... Delta has something like 13,000 pilots. I can't imagine how one would negotiate contract conditions for that many people. Similar to me, a pilot has a narrow skillset that can't easily be replaced. On top of it, there are onboarding and airline-specific policies. A 737 pilot can't go to work for DL one day and WN the next without additional training. It's not in the airline's interests to have pilot turnover because of the cost of training on top of the typical costs associated with hiring. By working with a labor union, the airline can set one standard and be done with it for a while. Similarly, the system is set up to encourage people to stay around a long time via seniority preferences.
A pushback is related to firing people for issues. While I've been involved on the management side, where we've had difficulty terminating employees for some egregious behavior, the other side is that it's possible that a company doesn't evenly or fairly apply disciplinary measures across 13,000 workers. The union ensures the work rules and scope are addressed fairly.
I want to begin by saying that I agree that you should be entitled to your opinion. I'm personally ambivalent to labor unions... meaning, I wish they didn't exist and I wish they didn't take some of the tactics they take, but at the same time I understand why they exist, especially in a historical context.
Resigning and seeking better employment is exactly what 88.4% of the US population does if they are unhappy with their job. Union behavior is like constantly going back to a restaurant you hate and demanding they improve the quality of their food/service and at a better price too. The vast majority of the population would simply take their money elsewhere
So... Delta has something like 13,000 pilots. I can't imagine how one would negotiate contract conditions for that many people. Similar to me, a pilot has a narrow skillset that can't easily be replaced. On top of it, there are onboarding and airline-specific policies. A 737 pilot can't go to work for DL one day and WN the next without additional training. It's not in the airline's interests to have pilot turnover because of the cost of training on top of the typical costs associated with hiring. By working with a labor union, the airline can set one standard and be done with it for a while. Similarly, the system is set up to encourage people to stay around a long time via seniority preferences.
A pushback is related to firing people for issues. While I've been involved on the management side, where we've had difficulty terminating employees for some egregious behavior, the other side is that it's possible that a company doesn't evenly or fairly apply disciplinary measures across 13,000 workers. The union ensures the work rules and scope are addressed fairly.
#47
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Minneapolis
Programs: AA EXP, Hyatt Diamond, SPG Gold, GlobalEntry, Admirals Club, United Club
Posts: 1,930
I'm not readywhenyouare, but I think I know what he's getting at here.
In my view, if these DL pilots weren't unionized the odds of every pilot walking out is close to zero. While some may for whatever reason, others will remain, if only because they rely on the source of income which can't be easily replaced elsewhere. DL can then try to hire other pilots to fill the openings and hope these "scabs" can bridge the gap until a more permanent labor solution is found. Of course, during these times and given the apparent pilot shortages, such a strategy may not be practical or feasible, which is why I suspect it's a good time to threaten a strike.
Personally, I don't like unions either--as a consumer they drive up my price per unit, inconvenience me and chip away at my piece of the pie as a shareholder. This of course doesn't mean I don't believe in labor's right to form a union, I do. I just view this as cost of doing business, where these DL pilots have an opportunity to leverage some concessions from the C-Suite. It would be irrational not to do so, because if the shoe were on the other foot, you can bet the C-Suite will be squeezing them.
In my view, if these DL pilots weren't unionized the odds of every pilot walking out is close to zero. While some may for whatever reason, others will remain, if only because they rely on the source of income which can't be easily replaced elsewhere. DL can then try to hire other pilots to fill the openings and hope these "scabs" can bridge the gap until a more permanent labor solution is found. Of course, during these times and given the apparent pilot shortages, such a strategy may not be practical or feasible, which is why I suspect it's a good time to threaten a strike.
Personally, I don't like unions either--as a consumer they drive up my price per unit, inconvenience me and chip away at my piece of the pie as a shareholder. This of course doesn't mean I don't believe in labor's right to form a union, I do. I just view this as cost of doing business, where these DL pilots have an opportunity to leverage some concessions from the C-Suite. It would be irrational not to do so, because if the shoe were on the other foot, you can bet the C-Suite will be squeezing them.
As for unions generally, I definitely understand the argument that unions drive up costs. But that's simply how negotiations work. Of course it would be nice for one side of a negotiation if the other side has almost no leverage in the negotiation (i.e. a salary negotiation for a single pilot). And those increased salaries drive up costs. Of course, it drives up costs a bit more than the increase in salary because there are these middlemen on both sides that are paid specifically to negotiate this. But that's already how almost all other significant negotiations work. There are lawyers on both sides negotiating, and someone has to pay them.
Last edited by jetsfan92588; Oct 3, 2022 at 7:18 am
#48
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Hotlanta.
Programs: I've gone underground!
Posts: 4,564
The airline industry is cyclical. For me, I'd rather have a steady and predictable salary throughout my career than these peaks and valleys. As it is now, you can expect to be paid like royalty during the good times and in the bad times you'll be lucky to not be furloughed for years.
Within a degree of reason, there's no salary low enough to create a steady state where you won't be laid off. The airline will eventually cancel the flight if they can't make money on it... and with the cancellation comes layoffs. Costs are up 18%, while passenger and cargo revenue are down 3%. Salaries alone can't overcome adverse economic conditions.
#49
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Minneapolis
Programs: AA EXP, Hyatt Diamond, SPG Gold, GlobalEntry, Admirals Club, United Club
Posts: 1,930
1 - you assume that all employees not in a union will leave if they're unhappy. Based on anecdotal reports, most employees who are unhappy just stay. Even if you disagree with the actual percentage here, your analysis fully ignores this group of employees, and you must admit that there is some percentage of employees who hate their jobs, but just stay anyways.
2 - you assume that all employees that are unionized are unhappy (or maybe, would have been unhappy had they not unionized and gotten a better deal).
#50
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 6,723
The airline industry is cyclical. For me, I'd rather have a steady and predictable salary throughout my career than these peaks and valleys. As it is now, you can expect to be paid like royalty during the good times and in the bad times you'll be lucky to not be furloughed for years.
I'm just using these numbers as an example. Maybe you make $400,000/year for six years but then get furloughed with no income for three years in a recession. I'd rather have a $200,000 steady income and not need such drastic hits during low times. And that would keep more pilots from being furloughed as well.
Not to mention that it seems today's pilots are not looking at the past. The flight engineer is gone, the navigator is gone, and the radio operator is gone. All replaced by automated systems. If they keep driving labor costs up it will only lead to faster adoption of single pilot operations and ultimately fully autonomous planes. Airbus has already demonstrated the A350 could be the flown single pilot in the future. Those who claim it can never happen are kidding themselves.
Not to mention that it seems today's pilots are not looking at the past. The flight engineer is gone, the navigator is gone, and the radio operator is gone. All replaced by automated systems. If they keep driving labor costs up it will only lead to faster adoption of single pilot operations and ultimately fully autonomous planes. Airbus has already demonstrated the A350 could be the flown single pilot in the future. Those who claim it can never happen are kidding themselves.
For instance, what assurances that in subsequent years, I (I can only fly in my dreams and on Microsoft Flight Sim) won’t have a mishap preventing me from flying? Industry change such as automation, as you’ve saliently observed, rendering my piloting skills obsolete? Political and regulatory risks? Of course, to each his/her own, but I find it much more appealing to have the money now where I can control its fate, rather than rely on an external source that may or may not exist in the future in its current form.
It all comes down to this: when you have a chance to get it, take it. And, as jetsfan (must be brutal!) very poignantly observed, even if the pilots were to settle for less, they're going to get furloughed anyway if and when the market environment dictates.
#51
Original Poster
Join Date: Jun 2013
Programs: DL Diamond, UA Premier Gold
Posts: 2,903
Specific to Delta pilots right now, my understanding is that Delta is already trying to hire/train as many pilots as they can, there just aren't enough. There's already a shortage, so even 25% quitting could bring operations down, because it's not as if Delta can just fly fewer planes and just ride it out. If this were a law firm for example - they could maybe just take fewer clients, their fixed costs would remain, but labor is by far their largest cost. Delta needs planes to move around in specific ways, and is not setup for a large reduction in force, and the resulting extreme reduction in routes or frequency of routes becomes very obvious, very quickly, to the flying public. And those people will be forced to choose a different airline. And given the incredible effort and massive amounts Delta spends to keep flyers "loyal", that would all go down the drain, as loyalty here isn't really loyalty, it's paid for.
The regional airlines certainly have a pilot shortage. SkyWest is losing (and struggling to replace) something like 10 percent of its pilots every month.
#52
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 6,574
Possible Pilots Strike
Hopefully it doesn't happen and I realize it's part of a lot of union contract negotiations to get a vote to strike but just in case I booked backup flights on Southwest for our November vacation.
https://www.reuters.com/business/aer...22%20agreement.
https://www.reuters.com/business/aer...22%20agreement.
#53
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Back in Reds Country (DAY/CVG). Previously: SEA & SAT.
Programs: DL PM 1MM, AA PLAT, UA Silver, Marriott Bonvoy Titanium
Posts: 10,289
Hopefully it doesn't happen and I realize it's part of a lot of union contract negotiations to get a vote to strike but just in case I booked backup flights on Southwest for our November vacation.
https://www.reuters.com/business/aer...22%20agreement.
https://www.reuters.com/business/aer...22%20agreement.
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delt...tion-vote.html
#54
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 6,574
Active thread discussing this already:
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delt...tion-vote.html
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delt...tion-vote.html
I'm sure a mod will move my post
#57
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,594
The best thing might be to call their bluff and just liquidate the airline and start over. Nothing but extortion at this point when you had some A350 captains making close to seven figures as reported on the DL pilots forum on Airline Pilot Central. These folks aren't even close to struggling like many Americans (unless they are living way beyond their means) so I don't see how they think they'll gain much sympathy from a strike. And they obviously don't care about the Delta employees who makes far less than them who they'll be putting out of a job. Just my opinion though.
but you actually believe this kind of stuff. yikes.
but I guess its easy to sit behind a keyboard and screw with people's money and lives
#58
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Orlando, FL Area
Programs: Delta SkySponge ExtraAbsorbent, SPG Gold
Posts: 29,988
Hi,
I want to begin by saying that I agree that you should be entitled to your opinion. I'm personally ambivalent to labor unions... meaning, I wish they didn't exist and I wish they didn't take some of the tactics they take, but at the same time I understand why they exist, especially in a historical context.
I want to begin by saying that I agree that you should be entitled to your opinion. I'm personally ambivalent to labor unions... meaning, I wish they didn't exist and I wish they didn't take some of the tactics they take, but at the same time I understand why they exist, especially in a historical context.
Historically, unions were operated by the mafia and their behavior relfects that. It's as if arson were legal and your neighbor threatens to burn your house down unless you pay him every month. There's nothing stopping these essential employees from making wildly excessive demands. If the company doesn't have that kind of money and refuses then they'll just see to it that the entire company goes down.
#59
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Utah
Programs: DL DM
Posts: 41
The best thing might be to call their bluff and just liquidate the airline and start over. Nothing but extortion at this point when you had some A350 captains making close to seven figures as reported on the DL pilots forum on Airline Pilot Central. These folks aren't even close to struggling like many Americans (unless they are living way beyond their means) so I don't see how they think they'll gain much sympathy from a strike. And they obviously don't care about the Delta employees who makes far less than them who they'll be putting out of a job. Just my opinion though.
#60
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Orlando, FL Area
Programs: Delta SkySponge ExtraAbsorbent, SPG Gold
Posts: 29,988
Hmm, I guess you didn't see the likes that post of mine received. I'm not the only one who feels this way.