Delta/Boeing 737-MAX Plane Transaction Thread (Consolidated)
#31
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Personally, I hope this never happens as I have no desire to fly on any MAX. I don’t understand why Delta would want the MAX 10 as it is of similar size, seating capacity, to the A321. One would think that Delta would be in the market to find a suitable replacement for the B738 and A320’s that are both the oldest single isle aircraft in their fleet, a aircraft in the 160 seat category.
1) DL is hoping to use this “potential deal” for the 737 MAX 10 as leverage to Airbus for a better deal on some Airbus birds
2) DL is actually considering it because Airbus wouldn’t be able to deliver equivalent aircraft (A321s) fast enough for DL’s expansion or fleet replacement plans/goals.
#32
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#33
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I think Boeing wants a DL 737 MAX 10 deal to pressure the FAA for an extension on the 737 MAX 10. But Europe may not budge.
I am surprised DL would consider the 737 MAX 10, given its heavy investment in the A321. A 737 MAX 10 will have a similar capacity to the current A321ceo, but the A3210neo with CabinFlex will have a higher capacity. All of the DL speculation on the 737 MAX pointed to the 737 MAX 8, which fits as a replacement for DL's A320s.
I am surprised DL would consider the 737 MAX 10, given its heavy investment in the A321. A 737 MAX 10 will have a similar capacity to the current A321ceo, but the A3210neo with CabinFlex will have a higher capacity. All of the DL speculation on the 737 MAX pointed to the 737 MAX 8, which fits as a replacement for DL's A320s.
#34
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I'll set aside the very sad and disturbing news out of China for the moment.
But I hope this DL news about the MAX doesn't prove out. I am among the many who find the 739 as Delta's least appealing mid-size. Given the narrower fuselage (and yes, I do notice the hip and shoulder room differences) DL's decisions about cabin layout - which I'm sure were impacted by where the wing exits are and how to maximize density - makes it plain they skimped on the C+ section.
Maybe the 10's geometry will work out better, but I'd rather not find out. I am curious how the 321neo is going to be arranged. The 321s now in service are mostly great, but the C+ rows just forward of the exit doors are definitely sub-par (the two seat pair is a nice option). Having a clear section back to the overwing exits should allow a better LOPA.
But I hope this DL news about the MAX doesn't prove out. I am among the many who find the 739 as Delta's least appealing mid-size. Given the narrower fuselage (and yes, I do notice the hip and shoulder room differences) DL's decisions about cabin layout - which I'm sure were impacted by where the wing exits are and how to maximize density - makes it plain they skimped on the C+ section.
Maybe the 10's geometry will work out better, but I'd rather not find out. I am curious how the 321neo is going to be arranged. The 321s now in service are mostly great, but the C+ rows just forward of the exit doors are definitely sub-par (the two seat pair is a nice option). Having a clear section back to the overwing exits should allow a better LOPA.
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… Maybe the 10's geometry will work out better, but I'd rather not find out. I am curious how the 321neo is going to be arranged. The 321s now in service are mostly great, but the C+ rows just forward of the exit doors are definitely sub-par (the two seat pair is a nice option). Having a clear section back to the overwing exits should allow a better LOPA.
#36
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Delta CEO says airline trying to reach deal with Boeing
https://www.reuters.com/business/aer...ng-2022-06-01/
I'm guessing Delta wishes they had sought more purchase options for the 321neo. Airbus musf not be giving as good a deal as Delta is used to and now they're having to make it look like they are serious about ordering from Boeing. I'm sure Airbus knows better. They've won every aircraft order from Delta for a decade now and there is almost no chance of them ordering from anyone else. In my opinion Airbus will ultimately get the price if wants out of Delta.
#37
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Delta CEO says airline trying to reach deal with Boeing
https://www.reuters.com/business/aer...ng-2022-06-01/
I'm guessing Delta wishes they had sought more purchase options for the 321neo. Airbus musf not be giving as good a deal as Delta is used to and now they're having to make it look like they are serious about ordering from Boeing. I'm sure Airbus knows better. They've won every aircraft order from Delta for a decade now and there is almost no chance of them ordering from anyone else. In my opinion Airbus will ultimately get the price if wants out of Delta.
#38
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You also have to consider the cost of a new fleet type though. It would seem much more economical to gradually move to an all Airbus fleet. Airbus makes up the bulk of Delta's fleet as it is and it would just make sense to keep expanding it. That reduces training costs, parts, maintenance, etc. It also increases productivity if you just reduce the pilot groups to A220, A320, A330, A350.
#39
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You also have to consider the cost of a new fleet type though. It would seem much more economical to gradually move to an all Airbus fleet. Airbus makes up the bulk of Delta's fleet as it is and it would just make sense to keep expanding it. That reduces training costs, parts, maintenance, etc. It also increases productivity if you just reduce the pilot groups to A220, A320, A330, A350.
As for your other point, DL has nearly 500 Boeing aircraft in its fleet (currently more Boeing aircraft than Airbus, though with current retirement/phase-outs and deliveries planned the Airbus numbers as they stand currently will eventually pass the Boeing numbers). DL is not an LCC where fleet commonality is much more critical to reducing costs. DL can absorb the costs associated with having a mixed fleet and make that up in other ways by optimizing the various fleet types across its network, particularly across the narrowbody fleet where an airline like DL has hundreds of a given type. DL is still the largest 757 and 767-300 operator. They have 77 737-800s and 159 737-900s, in which the oldest 737-900s aren't even 10 years old. Even during COVID which saw drastic fleet reductions and changes (such as the 777s being dumped and the MD-88s and MD-90 retirements being moved way up), DL did not switch to an all Airbus fleet or even begin to hint in that direction, for which COVID would have probably afforded quite an opportunity. Additionally, there are benefits to having a mixed fleet type rather than all Boeing or all Airbus. If an Airworthiness Directive comes out that grounds an entire fleet type, having a mixed fleet of Airbus and Boeing provides a buffer against how much of your fleet is grounded/impacted by the AD. If the FAA came out with an AD that grounded all 737 NG aircraft or all Airbus A32X series aircraft, for instance, while DL, AA, and UA would certainly feel the impact, they are not in the same position as WN or AS (737 NG) or JetBlue (A32X) who would be pretty much screwed.
#40
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Airbus musf not be giving as good a deal as Delta is used to and now they're having to make it look like they are serious about ordering from Boeing. I'm sure Airbus knows better. They've won every aircraft order from Delta for a decade now and there is almost no chance of them ordering from anyone else. In my opinion Airbus will ultimately get the price if wants out of Delta.
#41
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FWIW, I've recently begun to appreciate how much more comfortable the Airbus planes are in window seats in Y/C+ given the wider cabin. My shoulder was really pinched the other day against the sidewall on a 738, although that can also vary by row depending on the window placement. Came back on a 321 and even an extra inch makes a big difference.
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The Airbus offerings are really superior for comfort to Boeing's old 73x cabin design. Boeing just keeps stretching the same 50 year old tube design and putting on new engines and claiming its better but the same from a technical aspect for training/maintenance... which we know it isn't.
There was a long time where I preferred Boeing planes, but that has switched dramatically over the past 15 years. The last model that Boeing did really well for narrow body was the 757.
There was a long time where I preferred Boeing planes, but that has switched dramatically over the past 15 years. The last model that Boeing did really well for narrow body was the 757.
#43
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The Airbus offerings are really superior for comfort to Boeing's old 73x cabin design. Boeing just keeps stretching the same 50 year old tube design and putting on new engines and claiming its better but the same from a technical aspect for training/maintenance... which we know it isn't.
There was a long time where I preferred Boeing planes, but that has switched dramatically over the past 15 years. The last model that Boeing did really well for narrow body was the 757.
There was a long time where I preferred Boeing planes, but that has switched dramatically over the past 15 years. The last model that Boeing did really well for narrow body was the 757.
#44
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The 737 and 757 have the same cabin width but the floor is lower on the 757, putting more height between the floor and overhead bins. This also impacts where ones head and shoulders are relative to the cabin walls when sitting based on the curvature of the fuselage which is why the 757 often feels roomier and more spacious than a 737 - because in the space and dimensions that matter, the 757 is roomier (or rather provides more usable space for passengers).
#45
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Also from Airliners.net:
The 737 and 757 have the same cabin width but the floor is lower on the 757, putting more height between the floor and overhead bins. This also impacts where ones head and shoulders are relative to the cabin walls when sitting based on the curvature of the fuselage which is why the 757 often feels roomier and more spacious than a 737 - because in the space and dimensions that matter, the 757 is roomier (or rather provides more usable space for passengers).
The 737 and 757 have the same cabin width but the floor is lower on the 757, putting more height between the floor and overhead bins. This also impacts where ones head and shoulders are relative to the cabin walls when sitting based on the curvature of the fuselage which is why the 757 often feels roomier and more spacious than a 737 - because in the space and dimensions that matter, the 757 is roomier (or rather provides more usable space for passengers).