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Delta Pilots Write Open Letter to Customers re RecordTravel Demand

Delta Pilots Write Open Letter to Customers re RecordTravel Demand

Old Jun 21, 22, 5:32 am
  #61  
 
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Originally Posted by readywhenyouare View Post
Please don't put words in my mouth. I've said nothing about hating anyone. I personally knew an MCO based DL flight attendant who began working for National and to DL by way of the Pan Am acquisition.

Oh, and just to be sure, I asked a group of retired airline employees about Eastern on Facebook...

Is that supposed to mean something to me? One social media post? Serious question, are you above the age of 18? (Im being dead ... serious)

Everyone has opinions. Some of them are ignorant an uneducated. Thanks for proving that and still proving you have no idea what actually happened with Eastern. Maybe less facebooking and more googling.
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Old Jun 21, 22, 6:02 am
  #62  
 
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"I found one random anonymous wacko on the internet who agrees with me, ergo I am conclusively and unambigously correct" is very convincing
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Old Jun 21, 22, 6:15 am
  #63  
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Originally Posted by WillBarrett_68 View Post
"I found one random anonymous wacko on the internet who agrees with me, ergo I am conclusively and unambigously correct" is very convincing
At least I've provided some evidence. I'd love to see some actual proof of these angelic Eastern pilots. Militant is how I frequently heard them described. Note that the myth of Lorenzo being banned from running an airline has been debunked by other members here. And yet I haven't praised him or Eastern management. In general I've heard nothing good about that airline in its final years. Sometimes people are in love with the memory rather than the reality.
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Last edited by readywhenyouare; Jun 21, 22 at 6:41 am
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Old Jun 21, 22, 6:21 am
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Originally Posted by readywhenyouare View Post
At least I've provided some evidence. I'd love to see some actual proof of these angelic Eastern pilots. Militant is how I frequently heard them described. Note that the myth of Lorenzo being banned from running an airline has been debunked by other members here. And yet I haven't praised him or Eastern management. In general I've heard nothing good about that airline in its final years. Sometimes people are in love with the memorrather than the reality.
He was found unfit and banned. I was mistaken and thought it was the FAA, but it really was the DOT.

Others are parsing words in one article that I linked to. Here’s are contemporary newspaper articles that corroborate my assertion:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archi...-3a967d228ecb/

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-...672-story.html
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Old Jun 21, 22, 6:26 am
  #65  
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Originally Posted by emma dog View Post
He was found unfit and banned. I was mistaken and thought it was the FAA, but it really was the DOT.

Others are parsing words in one article that I linked to. Here’s are contemporary newspaper articles that corroborate my assertion:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archi...-3a967d228ecb/

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-...672-story.html
Being banned from running (or actually starting) an airline is different from being banned from working in the airline industry or even the USA airline industry.
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Old Jun 21, 22, 6:38 am
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Originally Posted by readywhenyouare View Post
At least I've provided some evidence. I'd love to see some actual proof of these angelic Eastern pilots. Militant is how I frequently heard them described.
Without a doubt, union actions/poor labor relations were a significant contributor to Easterns demise. However, that oversimplifies the absolutely toxic work environment Lorenzo and his management team created. His business plan was to union bust and create a low cost carrier… a completely different business model than the airlines he purchased.

Predating Lorenzo (and allowing the purchase by Texas Air), Eastern struggled to compete in the immediate deregulation period. This left a very weak
airline.

Eastern continued to be in a perilous financial situation heading into the early 1990s recession. Lorenzo had sold off EA assets, with the courts finding that they were sold below market rates to Continental and others. The dramatic fuel price increase associated with the First Gulf War was the absolutely last nail in the coffin.
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Old Jun 21, 22, 6:43 am
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Originally Posted by MSPeconomist View Post
Being banned from running (or actually starting) an airline is different from being banned from working in the airline industry or even the USA airline industry.
Ok, so I wasn’t precise in post 44… I specified c-suite in 48. 🤷🏼‍♂️

I’m not sure why this is such a big deal; clearly a non-pilot CEO isn’t going to become a pilot or baggage handler. They’re going to look for other management jobs.
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Old Jun 22, 22, 11:23 pm
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Originally Posted by emma dog View Post
Ok, so I wasn’t precise in post 44… I specified c-suite in 48. 🤷🏼‍♂️

I’m not sure why this is such a big deal; clearly a non-pilot CEO isn’t going to become a pilot or baggage handler. They’re going to look for other management jobs.
Both of these articles say his attempt to "start" an airline was denied, saying nothing about his ability to manage an airline or become CEO of an existing airline, unless I missed it.

I'm not "parsing" words - you're in complete control of the sources you're providing. I'm not attacking your sources or trying to play games with the wording. The sources you're choosing don't say what you're saying they say, and it would be unusual for a government agency to have the authority you're saying it has (though certainly not out of the realm of possibility, which is why I'm not saying definitively), hence my comparison to banking, a heavily regulated industry that I know well. Given the irregularity of such authority, I think it's appropriate to challenge your assertion without precise statements saying what you're saying.
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Old Jun 22, 22, 11:41 pm
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Deleted -accidental post.


Last edited by emma dog; Jun 23, 22 at 12:06 am
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Old Jun 23, 22, 12:05 am
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Originally Posted by jetsfan92588 View Post
Both of these articles say his attempt to "start" an airline was denied, saying nothing about his ability to manage an airline or become CEO of an existing airline, unless I missed it.

I'm not "parsing" words - you're in complete control of the sources you're providing. I'm not attacking your sources or trying to play games with the wording. The sources you're choosing don't say what you're saying they say, and it would be unusual for a government agency to have the authority you're saying it has (though certainly not out of the realm of possibility, which is why I'm not saying definitively), hence my comparison to banking, a heavily regulated industry that I know well. Given the irregularity of such authority, I think it's appropriate to challenge your assertion without precise statements saying what you're saying.
I am not a lawyer so am only guessing that the authority resides in 14 CFR section 119.65. Management personnel required for operations. While CEO isn’t listed specifically, (d) seems to apply since they manage control over operations.

The Washington Post article listed above quotes the Acting Assistant Secretary of Transportation as saying “Lorenzo has failed to show that he "has sufficient management ability to ensure that {his new airline} meets safety requirements, or that he is likely to comply voluntarily with legal requirements.”

You are right that it doesn’t describe management of an existing airline. But that wasn’t the issue at hand with this ruling… the ruling addressed his starting a new airline. There are other quotes that I can see in a NY Times archived article (https://timesmachine.nytimes.com/tim...?pageNumber=67) that quotes Lorenzo stating he had been found fit eight times previously and was found unfit for his new venture. The process to declare him unfit is described as rarely used. However, “under Lorenzo's supervision, Eastern Airlines and Texas Air had "experienced operational, maintenance and labor-related problems that were among the most serious in the history of U.S. aviation."
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Old Jun 23, 22, 12:05 am
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Originally Posted by emma dog View Post
Im guessing the legal authority is in this chapter of Federal Regulation.

14 CFR § 119.65 - Management personnel required for operations conducted under part 121 of this chapter.

OK, again, this is not even remotely in my wheelhouse, but all this regulation appears to say on its face is that an airline must have the following positions, and the individuals serving in these roles are subject to vetting/approval:
(1) Director of Safety. (2) Director of Operations. (3) Chief Pilot. (4) Director of Maintenance. (5) Chief Inspector.

Except for maybe a very small airline I could be wrong but I highly doubt that a CEO or COO would be the designated individual for any of those titles/roles.
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Old Jun 23, 22, 12:10 am
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Originally Posted by jetsfan92588 View Post
OK, again, this is not even remotely in my wheelhouse, but all this regulation appears to say on its face is that an airline must have the following positions, and the individuals serving in these roles are subject to vetting/approval:
(1) Director of Safety. (2) Director of Operations. (3) Chief Pilot. (4) Director of Maintenance. (5) Chief Inspector.

Except for maybe a very small airline I could be wrong but I highly doubt that a CEO or COO would be the designated individual for any of those titles/roles.
look at section (d). I would guess CEO exercises control over operations.(d) The individuals who serve in the positions required or approved under paragraph (a) or (b) of this section and anyone in a position to exercise control over operations conducted under the operating certificate must -

(1) Be qualified through training, experience, and expertise;
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Old Jun 23, 22, 12:12 am
  #73  
 
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Originally Posted by emma dog View Post
I am not a lawyer so am only guessing that the authority resides in 14 CFR section 119.65. Management personnel required for operations. While CEO isn’t listed specifically, (d) seems to apply since they manage control over operations.

The Washington Post article listed above quotes the Acting Assistant Secretary of Transportation as saying “Lorenzo has failed to show that he "has sufficient management ability to ensure that {his new airline} meets safety requirements, or that he is likely to comply voluntarily with legal requirements.”

You are right that it doesn’t describe management of an existing airline. But that wasn’t the issue at hand with this ruling… the ruling addressed his starting a new airline. There are other quotes that I can see in a NY Times archived article (https://timesmachine.nytimes.com/tim...?pageNumber=67) that quotes Lorenzo stating he had been found fit eight times previously and was found unfit for his new venture. The process to declare him unfit is described as rarely used. However, “under Lorenzo's supervision, Eastern Airlines and Texas Air had "experienced operational, maintenance and labor-related problems that were among the most serious in the history of U.S. aviation."
Oh, that's definitely possible that (d) would grant the regulators authority over anyone in management. It's not how I read it, but I can certainly see the argument and you may very well be right. I'm still not convinced that Lorenzo was ruled to be unfit to serve in any management position at any airline, but I definitely appreciate the citation and can see how the DOT could potentially have that authority.
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Old Jun 23, 22, 7:53 am
  #74  
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This also seems to suggest that there's authority/procedure to veto specific people for these key executive positions that are proposed by a particular airline, but not to issue a blanket ban that Person X (assuming no criminal convictions and no SEC enforcement actions that would limit fiduciary responsibility over a publicly traded company) can never hold one of these positions for any USA based airline.
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