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Seat Squatters WIn on DL1943 last night

Seat Squatters WIn on DL1943 last night

Old Dec 14, 21, 12:45 pm
  #76  
 
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OP said that the guy assigned 10C was last to board. Is it possible he was at the gate less than 15 minutes prior to scheduled departure, in which case he would no longer be guaranteed *any* seat, let alone the one he selected previously?

Also, what was the a/c? On many a/c, row 10 is a bulkhead and can be given to pax with special needs that may or may not be obvious to others, even if other pax were previously assigned to sit there.

If the pax from 33 just moved themselves to 10 then they should have been moved back to the main cabin from C+, but I'm just pointing out a couple of possible other factors.
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Old Dec 14, 21, 1:05 pm
  #77  
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Originally Posted by chollie View Post
OK, since getting the flight out on time is important and moving gutsy poachers like this after takeoff likely won't be problem-free, the FA should have told the poachers that the police would be waiting at the gate. No delay to the flight, no impact to all but one pax. Well, and perhaps an FA who really is being lazy.

After all, failure to comply with an FA's instructions is a violation of federal law. That plus blacklisting the poachers from flying Delta again.

Here's my issue: that FA appears to have kicked the can down the road, possibly because the pax was being a pain. Well, I fly Delta, and I don't like thinking someone - maybe even these same poachers - will get away with pulling the same stunt on me. I could be wrong, but I wouldn't be surprised if they've pulled this cr*p before.
Which is exactly what I surmised upthread. I'm sure similar issues have occurred on other carriers. But if the airlines let pax poach, why should they stop.
From reports in the news (there are even YouTube videos), more flagrant than "not obeying FA instructions" seem to lead to a "don't do it again" attitude by LEOs as the punishment.
Question: I always choose window seats, I keep the shades OPEN for the entire flight (I like to see the scenery as well as claustrophobic issues), a few times FAs have "asked" me to lower my shades, which I don't (after explaining my issues)--would I be subject to arrest upon landing?

Last edited by nrr; Dec 14, 21 at 1:12 pm
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Old Dec 14, 21, 1:08 pm
  #78  
 
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I really lose it when people start accusing the person who has been clearly wronged in this issue as being "entitled". You buy the seat, you ARE ENTITLED to sit in it. What nonsense.
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Old Dec 14, 21, 4:09 pm
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I can't imagine they won't use force. I've read of a lot of FA's who suddenly developed God-complexes during covid. If they'll deplane a man and wife with an infant because they didn't like the wife's attitude, they can certainly make squatters move to their own seats.
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Old Dec 14, 21, 4:13 pm
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Originally Posted by Repooc17 View Post
Why are you condoning the actions of the squatters? The lead FA knew those squatters were in the wrong (but didn't do anything). How about the squatter leader, the mom telling the daughter just to play dumb.

The FA didn't move anyone from row 33 to row 10. Those squatters moved themselves.
Right. Next time I want to squat I'll say I'm not feeling well, can't walk, and some guy is creeping me. Got it. Wish me luck!
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Old Dec 14, 21, 5:31 pm
  #81  
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Originally Posted by chollie View Post
Is there any reason the FA couldn't have waited until takeoff and seatbelt sign off to move the squatters to the seats they paid for?
Originally Posted by brandsberg View Post
Why weren't the people moved after they were in the air? That would have resolved all the issues.
The crew has (and passengers have) A LOT less leverage once in the air to resolve a problem that was known about before door closure.
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Old Dec 14, 21, 10:03 pm
  #82  
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Originally Posted by flyerCO View Post
You'll be in jail for false imprisonment if you try that. No crime against you has been committed. No crime against DL has occurred yet either. Unlike a law enforcement officer, you don't get immunity if you detain someone and it was incorrect. The only exception to this rule is for merchants and their employees who do get immunity. Even then it is very specific circumstances that they get it.

You likely have a civil case to sue DL, but no criminal case against the "thief". You don't own the seat, nor has DL leased you the seat. DL could file charges for trespassing if OP refuses to get off plane after being asked. (If they refused to move) If passenger moves back to C+ inflight then they could also possibly file theft of service charges.
Nope; I didn't physically detain anybody. They refused to leave the seat, by their own choice. The police officer physically detained them after I declared the citizen's arrest.

The could sue me for false arrest, but I don't think that's a winning play for them.

But it would never get that far.
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Old Dec 14, 21, 10:33 pm
  #83  
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Originally Posted by sethb View Post
It's the airline's policy for them to know which seats passengers actually fly in. Also, when I request compensation for the downgrade, I'll need proof that I didn't get to sit in the seat originally assigned.

You can, if you wish, call the police to have me removed. I will place the seat thief in my seat under citizen's arrest and formally demand the assistance of the police in expediting that arrest. I guarantee that process will lead to a much longer delay than moving the seat thief out of my seat, and my report to Delta will ensure that the delay is credited to your refusal to remove the seat thief from my seat.

Also, do you want 1's? Because this is how you get 1's on the flight survey.
Originally Posted by Visconti View Post
RE: Squatters

Ah, not a lawyer, but I'm assuming in the post Dao era, DL can't really force the squatters to move if they refuse? I mean, you can use force, right? Can't call the cops, right? Offer a bribe...er...compensation to return to their assigned seats?
Originally Posted by sethb View Post
Nope; I didn't physically detain anybody. They refused to leave the seat, by their own choice. The police officer physically detained them after I declared the citizen's arrest.

The could sue me for false arrest, but I don't think that's a winning play for them.

But it would never get that far.
Not how it works. When you perform a citizen arrest, it is the same as when an officer arrests you. You have detained the person. The person is no longer free to leave.. The officer doesn't arrest them, you already have.

If there was no valid basis for the arrest, you have then illegally detained someone. The officer can now arrest you and charge you for unlawfully detaining someone. You can be sued by the person who you detained.
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Old Dec 14, 21, 10:33 pm
  #84  
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Originally Posted by sethb View Post
Nope; I didn't physically detain anybody. They refused to leave the seat, by their own choice. The police officer physically detained them after I declared the citizen's arrest.

The could sue me for false arrest, but I don't think that's a winning play for them.

But it would never get that far.
For what are you arresting them? Poching is theft of service against DELTA--are you a DL agent? I could see a FA making a citizens arrest, but even that could have "legal" implcations which FAs might not want to get into.
Added comment: is poaching a civil or a criminal "infraction"? If its just civil (besides being escorted off the plane by LEOs) a citizens arrest would not come into play, DL could bill/sue them for the price difference between what they paid for and where they actually sat.

Last edited by nrr; Dec 15, 21 at 7:26 am
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Old Dec 14, 21, 11:19 pm
  #85  
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Originally Posted by flyerCO View Post
Not how it works. When you perform a citizen arrest, it is the same as when an officer arrests you. You have detained the person. The person is no longer free to leave.. The officer doesn't arrest them, you already have.

If there was no valid basis for the arrest, you have then illegally detained someone. The officer can now arrest you and charge you for unlawfully detaining someone. You can be sued by the person who you detained.
How would you attempt to sustain a claim that I detained them when I was clearly and with many eyewitnesses demanding that they move, and they were refusing to. That's the exact opposite of being detained.
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Old Dec 15, 21, 4:34 am
  #86  
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Originally Posted by chollie View Post
OK, since getting the flight out on time is important and moving gutsy poachers like this after takeoff likely won't be problem-free, the FA should have told the poachers that the police would be waiting at the gate. No delay to the flight, no impact to all but one pax. Well, and perhaps an FA who really is being lazy.

After all, failure to comply with an FA's instructions is a violation of federal law. That plus blacklisting the poachers from flying Delta again.

Here's my issue: that FA appears to have kicked the can down the road, possibly because the pax was being a pain. Well, I fly Delta, and I don't like thinking someone - maybe even these same poachers - will get away with pulling the same stunt on me. I could be wrong, but I wouldn't be surprised if they've pulled this cr*p before.
Originally Posted by Repooc17 View Post
I have personal experience in combating squatters, so I am not just talking the talk. I have made plenty of seat exchanges, but in every single one of those instances, people ask first, and are reasonable in seat exchange offers, usually people wanting to sit together. Row 10 and row 33 are not even remotely close to reasonable exchanges. Stand your ground. Also, other reasonable minded people will join in to defend for what's right.
Originally Posted by chollie View Post
Some folks say this proves you should never be last to board. Really? Y'all have never almost missed a connecting flight because of airline delays? I suspect these squatters use early boarding to poach seats and bin space.
Originally Posted by ATOBTTR View Post
It's going to be situation dependent and also person-to-person dependent and those are also going to determine how far you'll be able to go before either having to back down, get what you want, or have the police called. And what each person defines as "reasonable" is going to vary. In one respect, you and other people may see it as reasonable while other people may see it as unreasonable. Someone else who has a 35 min connection in ATL may think your action is unreasonable and may think "dude, just sit down and shut up" because they think the extent to which you're pushing things and possibly now causing them to misconnect (particularly if the police now get involved) is more unreasonable than the actions of either the other passengers or the FA, even if they also find those actions unreasonable.

I have in-person experience in squatters as well and only once have I had to get the FA involved, who made the squatters move so nothing further was required. Other times, it's been resolved between me and the squatter (whether they intentionally squatted or not). I'm also not defending the situation. This could have all been resolved by an FA doing what was right rather than what was easy and painless for the FA and while as I said above, DL has to be careful in how it treads because of "hearsay," I hope DL is able to educate the FA on what the appropriate action would be, even if it's not the easiest action for the FA. But everyone else has to also "pick your battles." You may be "right" in some respects but can still lose the battle and the war and other people may not find you as "reasonable" as you think your position is and as I said, I think threats of an FA calling the police against the person who is otherwise "right" will be the limit of where most people would draw a line.
Originally Posted by Repooc17 View Post
Why are you condoning the actions of the squatters? The lead FA knew those squatters were in the wrong (but didn't do anything). How about the squatter leader, the mom telling the daughter just to play dumb.

The FA didn't move anyone from row 33 to row 10. Those squatters moved themselves.
Originally Posted by sydneyracquelle View Post
So much drama upthread. I have been in this situation several times. Onboard FAs have all the power and I have very few rights onboard while DL can ban me, etc. But once I’ve landed I now have the power and this becomes an issue for DL customer service with very detailed documented notes and pictures and FA names.
Originally Posted by diburning View Post
I have a feeling that the FA already decided that they didn't like OP before the whole seat poacher thing. Why? Looking at DL1943 on FlightAware, this flight has been operated by a 737-900ER for as long as the history on FlightAware shows. Row 10 on this aircraft has a closet on the DEF side. If there was no room for OP's bag, most FAs would offer to stow it in the closet, or take down one of their crew bags and stow it in the closet to make room for the passenger's bag.
Originally Posted by pbjag View Post
How much do you want to wager that those bins were full because the squatters’ bags were in there?
Originally Posted by Repooc17 View Post
The pax had been assigned to 10C, but taken by someone else not supposed to be seated in 10C. How can someone be refusing to take their seat if their assigned seat had already been taken by someone else (improperly)? Stand up for your rights. If you have to be dragged off the flight, so be it. Call out the wrongs.



Squatters were ticketed in row 33, and decided to move themselves to row 10. FAs knew those squatters were in the wrong and still did nothing.

What safety/health reasons are you referring to in this scenario? Is there someone wrong with the ticketed seats where they are?
Originally Posted by Visconti View Post
RE: Squatters

Ah, not a lawyer, but I'm assuming in the post Dao era, DL can't really force the squatters to move if they refuse? I mean, you can use force, right? Can't call the cops, right? Offer a bribe...er...compensation to return to their assigned seats?
Originally Posted by HWGeeks View Post
He only agreed after repeatedly being told not to make the flight later than what it already was and he kept complaining that he needed the aisle because of a bad foot. But in all the time they were telling him not to make the flight later than what it was the squatters could have moved to 33 which I assume were still empty. Not sure haven't made the trek that far back of the plane in a long time.
Originally Posted by brandsberg View Post
Why weren't the people moved after they were in the air? That would have resolved all the issues. I would have made a stink as well. Need to be reported to FAA. Staff was just plain wrong on this one.
Originally Posted by ATOBTTR View Post
The FAA and DOT aren't going to get involved or probably care. There was nothing "illegal" and, right, wrong, or indifferent, the airline can *always* fall back on "seat assignments are not guaranteed and passengers may be moved to another set for operational reasons or to accommodate other passengers with special needs." The issue is between the person who had their seat swapped and DL and it can be resolved there. What should happen is: 1) DL provides the person who was moved appropriate compensation, even if he was accommodated in the same "cabin" (C+) and 2) DL needs to let the FA who took the easiest and most painless route for them was extremely inappropriate and outline the action the FA should take in the future (move the seat squatters). However, DL also has to tread carefully in how they approach the FA because all of this is technically hearsay as far as DL can tell from its own records.
Originally Posted by nrr View Post
Once in the air how do DL FAs get the poachers to move if they refuse to "budge"? An incident in the air is to be avoided at all cost.
Originally Posted by chollie View Post
Is there any reason the FA couldn't have waited until takeoff and seatbelt sign off to move the squatters to the seats they paid for?
Originally Posted by nrr View Post
From info noted upthread, the pochers knew they wouldn't be moved (probably from previous pochings). The fault to a large extent lies with DL (airlines in general) of allowing pax to poach.
The good news for me is that I haven't encountered a situation where the squatter refused to cooperate. I generally shy away from confrontations on a plane due to potential unforeseen consequences. I hadn't experienced anything too serious except for that flight just before COVID lockdown began on an Air Canada flight out of Beijing. Some Chinese passenger was upset I had the air nozzle above my seat on. He claimed that it was making him cold and sick. The guy unilaterally closed it, and I took offense to it. An argument began, and he was speaking Mandarin Chinese with me. My Mandarin Chinese isn't as good as his as it's my third language (I learned it back in university). I just said eff it and started arguing back at him in English even though I knew what he was saying. I just can't think in Mandarin as fast, especially when I'm pissed off. We eventually agreed that the nozzle would be reduced slightly to make him more comfortable. No flight attendant was involved. Not sure if the flight attendant would have ruled in my favor. I did have AC status at the time, so who knows?

The last time I encountered a squatter on a DL flight was around 2017 on a SFO-JFK red-eye. I was late to board the flight, and a girl sat in my window seat. I was the only one standing as I was last to board. The girl said she wanted to with her friend and asked me to sit near the very back of the plane in her middle seat. On a transcon? Uh, no way I was going to do that. I told her that was my seat and I would not sit in a middle seat on a transcon! I guess she blinked first, and she looked upset as her friend also left her seat and accompanied her.

Regarding a full bin, I've experienced it a number of times on a DL flight. I'm not sure if my status helped, but I always tell the FA that my bag contains very expensive camera equipment (it was the truth). I told them there was no way I could check them, given the value of the gear. They've always managed to find space somewhere for the safe storage of my bag. I've never lost anything, and I've been taken care of. So far!

Originally Posted by bocastephen View Post
Another option was to see if the 10C poacher got up to use the restroom, then you could just slide right into that seat and then refuse to move - after all, your boarding pass would have 10C on it.

🤣

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Old Dec 16, 21, 8:35 am
  #87  
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Originally Posted by pbjag View Post
How much do you want to wager that those bins were full because the squatters bags were in there?
It was, and they were also scolded by the FA as they boarded because they didn't want to check the baby stroller if I recall correctly. He made them get off and check the stroller but didn't make them move when found to be squatting in the seats.

Also the FA at the door was useless, she could have caught the stroller coming on board but simply ignored it and basically was rude to anyone who wasn't seated in 1st.
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Old Dec 16, 21, 11:55 am
  #88  
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Originally Posted by nrr View Post
For what are you arresting them? Poching is theft of service against DELTA--are you a DL agent? I could see a FA making a citizens arrest, but even that could have "legal" implcations which FAs might not want to get into.
Added comment: is poaching a civil or a criminal "infraction"? If its just civil (besides being escorted off the plane by LEOs) a citizens arrest would not come into play, DL could bill/sue them for the price difference between what they paid for and where they actually sat.
Isn't seat poaching (attempted) theft of services?
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Old Dec 16, 21, 1:25 pm
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Originally Posted by nrr View Post
Once in the air how do DL FAs get the poachers to move if they refuse to "budge"? An incident in the air is to be avoided at all cost.
Inform the poachers, if they don't move, that the rest of their ticket will be cancelled and they will be arrested on landing for disobeying FA instructions and theft of services.
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Old Dec 16, 21, 1:42 pm
  #90  
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Originally Posted by glob99 View Post
Inform the poachers, if they don't move, that the rest of their ticket will be cancelled and they will be arrested on landing for disobeying FA instructions and theft of services.

Now you have an incident in the making, in the air! Any crewmember will tell you, the last thing you want is incident in the air. If it can be handled on ground, always handle on ground. If it's important enough to arrest them, you do that before departing. You don't risk safety by waiting till in air.
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