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Delta to retire 717, 767-300ER and CRJ-200

Delta to retire 717, 767-300ER and CRJ-200

Old Sep 25, 2020, 9:33 pm
  #31  
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Originally Posted by ClipperDelta
NCE has been a 767-400ER for many years now and is currently loaded as an A330-200 for next summer. ZRH-JFK hasn’t seen the 763 since April 2018 (has been the A332 and then 764). DUS and MUC had been on the 764 as well. Both STR and TXL have alternated between the 763 and 764 for a while. As it is, both DUS and BER are not currently planned to come back in 2021, not because of any lack of the 763, but because of Covid.

Many of the 763s had been operating supplementary TATL routes during peak summer (such as ATL-VCE or ATL-MXP); if need be DL could simply drop those and keep VCE for example only from JFK and upgauge to an Airbus.
Next summer, the 763s are scheduled on all DUB, MAD and BCN flights from multiple US gateways but that is because they still anticipate that demand won’t have recovered yet; pre-Covid those places all got the A333s from both ATL and JFK during the summer (and kept the A333 during winter by dropping ATL).
Point is, they will find ways to handle many of the 763 destinations. Pre-Covid Delta had already been moving to upgauge many routes.
Yeah Delta knows better than all the other airlines... Even Air France and Lufthansa ordered the 787. That says quite a lot. You are mistaken about the 763ER. It ran plenty of international flights prior to covid. Any timetable will show you that. They wouldn't have scheduled it for the new D1 suite if it didn't. And it was definitely a favorite for seasonal routes. If a route couldn't support year-round service on the 763 or 757 than it has zero chance of surviving the significantly larger A330.
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Old Sep 25, 2020, 9:56 pm
  #32  
 
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Originally Posted by readywhenyouare
If the were smart they'd workout a 787-8 order. But my money is on Delta using Ch 11 to get out of the 717 lease.
They might be able to work out a deal with Hawaiian to take over the leases of some of the 717s. HA's 717 fleet (which I believe consists of 20 frames) is getting up there in cycles since it flies only interisland (15-20 cycles a day is not uncommon), but AFAIK they have not identified any suitable replacement, as the 717 Rolls Royce engines are able to handle the short turns and high daily cycles very well, and the 717 has really low operating costs for interisland. HA might be glad to take some of Delta's lower cycle 717s to replace their high cycle ones.
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Old Sep 25, 2020, 10:16 pm
  #33  
 
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B763 - While this is the first time we've seen an official date (Dec 2025) it really is maybe 1-2 year prior to where they were scheduled to be retired pre-COVID. The aircraft were all basically at, near, or recently through their last heavy maintenance cycles. Considering the backlog of A339 orders/deliveries, the writing was on the wall. Announced last quarter was the early retirement of 7 B763s which were likely all due for heavy maintenance over the next year.

B712 - there has been a lot of rumor and speculation about this fleet. The fleet had been primarily leases with renewals coming due over the next several years. Rumors about keeping to 2030 and installing PTVs prior to Covid, rumors about working a deal with Boeing for 737 MAX a few months ago. An airworthiness directive that would require seats to be replaced by the end of 2022 that may or may not have been extended. In reality, even pre-covid keeping them to 2030 seemed like a stretch especially with the backlog of A220 orders. I honestly right now more surprised they are keeping them until 2025 versus what easily could've been a decision to let them go in 2021 or 2022 in the covid era. The part that we don't know yet is how they've renegotiated all the Airbus deliveries over the next few years. Right now only ~45 of the 91 are flying, it will be interesting to see if they reactivate the ones in storage.

CR2 - I personally don't have the hate against this type that so many do, but I get it. I have no issue with them on the short flights into small markets, granted that I was used to flying SF3 and/or the "Bro into back in the day. (Full disclosure - was a fan of turboprops, thought they were pretty cool). Granted, back in the day flew a CR2 on SLC-MSP next to a dude who was like 6'5 with football lineman shoulders - not cool. Anyways, this fleet was approaching its twilight anyways. This obviously applies to the DL-owned CR2s which are operated by Endeavor (9E). Unclear exactly if this impacts the Skywest (OO) owned CR2s that primarily do EAS-flying. I think the Skywest at-risk flying was terminated with Covid and that has reverted to flying under capacity purchase agreements. Some of the flying will simply go to larger 2-class RJs, the EAS stuff will stay under EAS contracts maybe still with CR2s, but there could be some small market fall-out. 50-seat flying is in its twilight anyways at all of the US3.
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Old Sep 25, 2020, 11:07 pm
  #34  
 
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Originally Posted by SEA-Flyer
787-800 can do it, but that wont happen.
There is no such thing as a 787-800. I suspect you were referring to the 787-8.
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Old Sep 25, 2020, 11:41 pm
  #35  
 
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Originally Posted by CO-PLAT
There is no such thing as a 787-800. I suspect you were referring to the 787-8.
Yes, my mistake.
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Old Sep 26, 2020, 1:59 am
  #36  
 
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DL will just order a bunch of A330-800 and A220 and call it a day. 2025 is still quite some time away.
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Old Sep 26, 2020, 2:20 am
  #37  
 
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Originally Posted by readywhenyouare
If the were smart they'd workout a 787-8 order.
Probably the best widebody right now in this pandemic era. Low weight, low fuel burn, low passenger count, high range, high cargo capability.

But my money is on Delta using Ch 11 to get out of the 717 lease.
I doubt it. With a end date announced, they most likely already worked out some sort of agreement with Boeing. I guess this also means the 763's will not be getting the D1 refresh or possibly only a select few of them?
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Old Sep 26, 2020, 6:57 am
  #38  
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For D1, DL has been making a big deal about 100% direct aisle access and it makes a big difference unless you always travel as a couple. For TATL routes, there's a big difference between a 767 and a 757 for this reason and the 767 similarly is a much better experience in coach. I'll take an additional connection to get a 767 rather than a 757 with flat beds for a long segment.

Oh well, I guess any future trips to Europe will involve connections through AMS on KLM (or CDG on AF now), just like I did for a long time with PMNW.

Many small airports would rather have CRJ-200 service than no (DL) service at all. I feel the same when I have to go to one of these places, although I'll gladly fly nonstop or mainline too some bigger nearby airport, rent a car, and drive an hour or two. OTOH, if the nearby airport also requires connections or a CRJ-700 or equivalent, I'll pick the CRJ-200 right to my destination.

It could be interesting if no major carrier wants to bid for an EAS contract or if some of the current tiny EAS carriers are able to expand. There's one I stumbled upon recently that serves some small airports in Iowa and looks very good. It doesn't appear to have any form of partnerships or even interline arrangements with other carriers, so they seem to sell their own point to point tickets with no way to check bags through either. [I noticed the symbol coming and going from a far A/B gate at MSP T1 one day on realtime airport viewer and was curious.]
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Old Sep 26, 2020, 8:26 am
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I guess the 712's leaving makes sense, as 88 of the 91 are leased. They were nice to fly on, but this makes business sense (esp if they're up for renewal).

763 - I'll miss these. Not sure what this says for Tier 2 markets to places like CDG/AMS. Those markets are prob 1-2 years from returning (if ever).

CRJ (200) - This is by far the best part of the announcement. Delta should hold "Smash a CRJ with a sledgehammer" fundraisers all over the country and kill two birds with one stone.
I do wonder what happens to CRJ200 only markets. Next few years will be interesting fo sho.
Spiff and cmd320 like this.
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Old Sep 26, 2020, 8:59 am
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Originally Posted by MSPeconomist
It could be interesting if no major carrier wants to bid for an EAS contract or if some of the current tiny EAS carriers are able to expand. There's one I stumbled upon recently that serves some small airports in Iowa and looks very good. It doesn't appear to have any form of partnerships or even interline arrangements with other carriers, so they seem to sell their own point to point tickets with no way to check bags through either. [I noticed the symbol coming and going from a far A/B gate at MSP T1 one day on realtime airport viewer and was curious.]
Air Choice One? I have always been curious about them and Boutique Air after seeing their desks at the MSP check in area. Boutique Air apparently has a codeshare agreement with United. Ive always been tempted to take one of these flights just to see what its like. At least the cabins on Boutique Air seem nice.
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Old Sep 26, 2020, 9:08 am
  #41  
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Originally Posted by VFR
Obviously the world could look a bit different by 2025, but my expectation is that the 757s stick around for a long time and they downgauge to lie-flat 757s.
Down-guaging to a 757 will only work on a handful of Int'l routes. The 757 can really only do TATL routes out of the Northeast. Anything beyond that and the 757 struggles on the range, especially in the winter.

I wonder if this announcement means a cancellation on the plans to put entertainment screens on the 717 since not long ago (pre-COVID), I'm pretty sure there was an announcement that the 717s would be getting seatback entertainment screens.

I'll be curious to see what DL's plans are going forward and to see if DL looks to try to leverage Boeing and Airbus against each other for perhaps an A321XLR versus 787-8 order (or if DL looks to pick up aircraft on the second hand market, such as some A330-200s) as a potential replacement option to maintain all/most of its current (pre-COVID) TATL and TPAC route map by 2025.
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Old Sep 26, 2020, 9:11 am
  #42  
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Originally Posted by ATOBTTR
I wonder if this announcement means a cancellation on the plans to put entertainment screens on the 717 since not long ago (pre-COVID), I'm pretty sure there was an announcement that the 717s would be getting seatback entertainment screens.
I would guess so. I can't see them investing in that for only four years of return, especially now.

Originally Posted by ATOBTTR
I'll be curious to see what DL's plans are going forward and to see if DL looks to try to leverage Boeing and Airbus against each other for perhaps an A321XLR versus 787-8 order (or if DL looks to pick up aircraft on the second hand market, such as some A330-200s) as a potential replacement option to maintain all/most of its current (pre-COVID) TATL and TPAC route map by 2025.
At some point DL will need an actual 757 replacement if they don't go with the XLR. Hopefully whatever it is, Airbus will have figured out by then how to have an actual 2L boarding door on a narrowbody.
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Old Sep 26, 2020, 9:21 am
  #43  
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Originally Posted by MSPeconomist
For D1, DL has been making a big deal about 100% direct aisle access and it makes a big difference unless you always travel as a couple. For TATL routes, there's a big difference between a 767 and a 757 for this reason and the 767 similarly is a much better experience in coach. I'll take an additional connection to get a 767 rather than a 757 with flat beds for a long segment.
Once DL started putting D1 flat beds in the 757s with the 2x2 layout, DL dropped the "100% direct aisle access across D1" marketing. They did advertise certain routes with all-aisle access - I specifically remember LHR getting such marketing at one point.
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Old Sep 26, 2020, 10:16 am
  #44  
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Originally Posted by ATOBTTR
Down-guaging to a 757 will only work on a handful of Int'l routes. The 757 can really only do TATL routes out of the Northeast. Anything beyond that and the 757 struggles on the range, especially in the winter.
I wasn't clear -- I meant on JFK-LAX. The INTL 757s might be able to fly transatlantic out of BOS and C-markets out of JFK, but the New York market is very product-focused and basically demands widebodies and all-aisle-access.

At this point, they can't wait for the 797/NMA to replace the 767s. Boeing will offer them the 787-8, but the range is not necessary to fly the TATL routes. My bet is still that they pick up some A330-200s on the used market -- it doesn't add a new type to the fleet and they cut the routes that can't take the additional capacity.
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Old Sep 26, 2020, 10:16 am
  #45  
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Originally Posted by ATOBTTR
Once DL started putting D1 flat beds in the 757s with the 2x2 layout, DL dropped the "100% direct aisle access across D1" marketing. They did advertise certain routes with all-aisle access - I specifically remember LHR getting such marketing at one point.
Of course, although instead of seeing routes specified, I've seen it advertised for all DL wide body aircraft.
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