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Delta does not want to issue KL-coded flights?

Delta does not want to issue KL-coded flights?

Old Sep 10, 20, 9:06 pm
  #1  
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Delta does not want to issue KL-coded flights?

I was chatting with a representative about my ticket with a schedule change. There was a strong pushback from the Delta representative on booking KL-coded flights.

"Thanks for your patience. We will allow this to remain booked as the KL marketed flights since that's how you originally booked. Keep in mind, that may not be allowed on future bookings. The fare rules on this ticket will remain the same."

I asked why, and they responded "We just try not to book KL marketed flights unless you're on a KL ticket. The ticket stock your booked on needs to match the marketing carrier. It makes things easier when dealing with schedule changes, cancellations, credits, etc"

What difference does it make to them? And, why would they not allow booking KL-coded flights?
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Last edited by smartytravel; Sep 10, 20 at 9:13 pm
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Old Sep 10, 20, 9:34 pm
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It has to do with a combo of general airline industry practices + JV practices. In fairness, at AA and UA, agents will similarly pushback on using BA/AY or LH/OS coded flights wherever AA or UA coded segments exist.
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Under airline industry rules, the carrier marketing the first overwater segment on an international itinerary should issue the ticket. Therefore, if a ticket is issued on Delta (006-) stock, the first overwater segment should carry a DL prefix. Defaulting itineraries to DL-marketed flights whenever possible helps ensures compliance.

Additionally, airline Joint Venture agreements weigh the marketing code of a covered flight as a factor in allocating revenue. This means it is slightly advantageous (miniscule on any one ticket, but adds up in the aggregate) for Delta to sell a flight under the DL code versus the code of KL, AF, or anyone else.
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Old Sep 10, 20, 9:49 pm
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Originally Posted by nerdbirdsjc View Post
It has to do with a combo of general airline industry practices + JV practices. In fairness, at AA and UA, agents will similarly pushback on using BA/AY or LH/OS coded flights wherever AA or UA coded segments exist.
​​​​​
Under airline industry rules, the carrier marketing the first overwater segment on an international itinerary should issue the ticket. Therefore, if a ticket is issued on Delta (006-) stock, the first overwater segment should carry a DL prefix. Defaulting itineraries to DL-marketed flights whenever possible helps ensures compliance.

Additionally, airline Joint Venture agreements weigh the marketing code of a covered flight as a factor in allocating revenue. This means it is slightly advantageous (miniscule on any one ticket, but adds up in the aggregate) for Delta to sell a flight under the DL code versus the code of KL, AF, or anyone else.
Thats a very thorough and comprehensive explanation. A couple of questions:
1. What if I want to buy a 006 ticket where KLM is the first overwater carrier? Would Delta then be more amenable to put KL flights?
2. How can I book KL-marketed flights on 006 stock without talking to representatives? KLM used to have a call center in the US, which was issuing all tickets on 006 stock, but thats no more.
3. Is Delta upset that I want KL-marketed flights? Will they penalize me in some way or fashion?
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Old Sep 10, 20, 10:21 pm
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Originally Posted by smartytravel View Post
Thats a very thorough and comprehensive explanation. A couple of questions:
1. What if I want to buy a 006 ticket where KLM is the first overwater carrier? Would Delta then be more amenable to put KL flights?
2. How can I book KL-marketed flights on 006 stock without talking to representatives? KLM used to have a call center in the US, which was issuing all tickets on 006 stock, but thats no more.
3. Is Delta upset that I want KL-marketed flights? Will they penalize me in some way or fashion?
1. Delta certainly can issue a 006 ticket with KL-marketed flights on the overwater segments, but agents will encourage booking under the DL code if at all possible.

2. In short, you generally cannot. KL reintroduced its ticket stock in the North American market as of 2018, so the reservations systems used by travel agents (incl. OTAs) booking KLM marketed flights will default to KL 074 ticket stock for issuing the ticket. Delta's own website will only use KL marketed flights for itineraries where DL marketed flights do not exist (e.g., a few intra-Europe legs where KLM and AF offer codeshare flights operated by another airline).

3. Delta won't penalize you in any ways for using KLM marketed flights, but as you've seen its agents won't necessarily make it easy if you can take the trip under the DL code instead.
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Old Sep 11, 20, 9:51 am
  #5  
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Also matters from a reservation system ease POV. DL coded flights (even those that are codeshares) are booked in the DL system and DL can do as they want. KL coded (evening on DL metal) are handled through KLs system. From a reservation POV they're wholly different flights.
Think of a codeshare as a flight where the marketing carrier knows they won't be able to operate the flight. Thus a corresponding reservation is made for another flight that just happens to operate at same time.

If DL books a flight with a KL code, it's up to KL to allow the reservation or not, even if ultimately it will be operating as a codeshare on DL metal.

Also not all routes are JV revenue neutral. Thus it's not realistic for an agent to know if certain flights might cost DL more if coded as OAL.
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Old Sep 11, 20, 9:58 am
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Moreover, carriers provide less and less training to front line agents rather than training them on the deep dark secrets of the GDS. Some carriers even limit access to other than senior agents and have those on tap for complex matters. There is a good chance that the average front line agent or supervisor has no idea what a JV is and whether it is revenue neutral.

Finally, as noted above, consider the issues created when bookings go wrong or in IRROPS.
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Old Sep 11, 20, 10:11 am
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FWIW, I have booked tickets with a DL agent, on 006 tickets stock, that consisted entirely of AF coded flights, a mix of AF and DL operated flights. Usually the overwater flights are AF operated. That said, I do experience issues whenever there is a schedule change (nearly always on the DL operated flights). They usually just drop off the itinerary, whether viewing online on DL or AF. I keep an eye on these itins, and need to call to fix. Usually takes about 15+ minutes to fix.

having the original emails for the original itin helps a lot in these situations.
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Old Sep 11, 20, 1:03 pm
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Originally Posted by TrojanTraveler View Post
FWIW, I have booked tickets with a DL agent, on 006 tickets stock, that consisted entirely of AF coded flights, a mix of AF and DL operated flights. Usually the overwater flights are AF operated. That said, I do experience issues whenever there is a schedule change (nearly always on the DL operated flights). They usually just drop off the itinerary, whether viewing online on DL or AF. I keep an eye on these itins, and need to call to fix. Usually takes about 15+ minutes to fix.

having the original emails for the original itin helps a lot in these situations.
I'd be surprised if DL phone agents have the authority to issue tickets on any stock besides 006, regardless of marketing carrier. Schedule changes involving an interline itinerary often cause the web/abb version of the itinerary to get mixed up. Clients call all the time with "I can't see my XXX-YYY segment. Are you sure I'm confirmed?". Sometimes, everything is fine in the GDS (and DL/AF CRSs) and it is just a tech issue with the web interface, other times the airlines change some of the flights, but leave entire sectors unconfirmed altogother. It can be a mess.
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Old Sep 11, 20, 1:13 pm
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Originally Posted by nerdbirdsjc View Post
1. Delta certainly can issue a 006 ticket with KL-marketed flights on the overwater segments, but agents will encourage booking under the DL code if at all possible.

2. In short, you generally cannot. KL reintroduced its ticket stock in the North American market as of 2018, so the reservations systems used by travel agents (incl. OTAs) booking KLM marketed flights will default to KL 074 ticket stock for issuing the ticket. Delta's own website will only use KL marketed flights for itineraries where DL marketed flights do not exist (e.g., a few intra-Europe legs where KLM and AF offer codeshare flights operated by another airline).

3. Delta won't penalize you in any ways for using KLM marketed flights, but as you've seen its agents won't necessarily make it easy if you can take the trip under the DL code instead.
This is very informative, thank you for explaining!

To your point number two, I've never had a problem using ITA matrix to search flights and an additional script (which I found, admittedly, on flyertalk) that allows booking via delta.com. This has always issued an 006 ticket. Though I will say in a recent attempt, I noticed at least one flight has to be DL coded, DL operated. My real question is given all these complexities, why does delta.com even allow this to go through at all?
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Old Sep 11, 20, 1:30 pm
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Originally Posted by NYC Flyer View Post
I'd be surprised if DL phone agents have the authority to issue tickets on any stock besides 006, regardless of marketing carrier. Schedule changes involving an interline itinerary often cause the web/abb version of the itinerary to get mixed up. Clients call all the time with "I can't see my XXX-YYY segment. Are you sure I'm confirmed?". Sometimes, everything is fine in the GDS (and DL/AF CRSs) and it is just a tech issue with the web interface, other times the airlines change some of the flights, but leave entire sectors unconfirmed altogother. It can be a mess.
It can definitely be a mess. Usually when a segment drops, I call and they cant see what happened. I then give then the segments flight number, date, and usually the date I bought the ticket. Then they find it...though they almost always are surprised the situation occurred. I can imagine people getting to their departure airport, being told by the airline that they are not booked on that flight, and then trying to sort it all out...and still make that flight in time. One of the reasons why I still print original itins and travel with them.
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Old Sep 11, 20, 3:00 pm
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Originally Posted by NYC Flyer View Post
I'd be surprised if DL phone agents have the authority to issue tickets on any stock besides 006, regardless of marketing carrier. Schedule changes involving an interline itinerary often cause the web/abb version of the itinerary to get mixed up. Clients call all the time with "I can't see my XXX-YYY segment. Are you sure I'm confirmed?". Sometimes, everything is fine in the GDS (and DL/AF CRSs) and it is just a tech issue with the web interface, other times the airlines change some of the flights, but leave entire sectors unconfirmed altogother. It can be a mess.
Airline agents can only reissue on their own stock. In the past when a DL agent issued a KLM stock ticket, the DL agent was actually functioning as a KLM agent. Basically the same difference as if QE II of the UK signs something in regards to Canada while home in the UK. She's not doing it as QE II of UK, rather as QE II of Canada despite signing document while in the UK.
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Old Sep 11, 20, 4:06 pm
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Originally Posted by AviationFreak View Post
To your point number two, I've never had a problem using ITA matrix to search flights and an additional script (which I found, admittedly, on flyertalk) that allows booking via delta.com.
Would you mind sharing a script or, better yet, the instructions how to do this?
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Old Sep 11, 20, 4:17 pm
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Originally Posted by TrojanTraveler View Post
It can definitely be a mess. Usually when a segment drops, I call and they cant see what happened. I then give then the segments flight number, date, and usually the date I bought the ticket. Then they find it...though they almost always are surprised the situation occurred. I can imagine people getting to their departure airport, being told by the airline that they are not booked on that flight, and then trying to sort it all out...and still make that flight in time. One of the reasons why I still print original itins and travel with them.
That's interesting! So the reason I had to talk to Delta, because I received a cancellation email on my KL-coded flights on 006 stock. Obviously, I cannot extrapolate, but whenever I book KL-marketed flights on 006-stock, everything always works perfectly. I get notifications (not from Delta, but KLM), and agents are able to work things out fairly easily.

That's why I was surprised about what the agent was telling me.
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Old Sep 11, 20, 4:31 pm
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Originally Posted by smartytravel View Post
Would you mind sharing a script or, better yet, the instructions how to do this?
ITA-Matrix-PowerTools - Userscript for Orbitz/DL/UA/AA/BA/CZ/IB/LA/LH/LX/TK

No guarantees that it always work, especially if you have a complex multisegment itinerary
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Old Sep 11, 20, 5:18 pm
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Originally Posted by smartytravel View Post
That's interesting! So the reason I had to talk to Delta, because I received a cancellation email on my KL-coded flights on 006 stock. Obviously, I cannot extrapolate, but whenever I book KL-marketed flights on 006-stock, everything always works perfectly. I get notifications (not from Delta, but KLM), and agents are able to work things out fairly easily.

That's why I was surprised about what the agent was telling me.
Theres also the possibility that the agent was misinformed. Especially the comment that The ticket stock needs to match the marketing carrier, which is not correct.
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