DL TATL schedule sustainable?
I've had a lot of time the last couple days and have been looking at everything flying across the ocean this summer, particularly on DL. Ex AMS today there are three departures to ATL alone (2x DL, 1x KL). With both countries essentially closed to each other, can this be sustainable? Does anyone have any idea what load factors on these flights look like right now? What about the DTW, SEA, BOS, JFK flights?
I would welcome any thoughts or anecdotes of people who have flown between the two continents lately. |
Originally Posted by liquidtoast
(Post 32591064)
I've had a lot of time the last couple days and have been looking at everything flying across the ocean this summer, particularly on DL. Ex AMS today there are three departures to ATL alone (2x DL, 1x KL). With both countries essentially closed to each other, can this be sustainable? Does anyone have any idea what load factors on these flights look like right now? What about the DTW, SEA, BOS, JFK flights?
I would welcome any thoughts or anecdotes of people who have flown between the two continents lately. |
Cargo is the keyword. And I know they wouldn't hesitate to shut any flight down if it wasn't worth it in this environment. I don't think they're like keeping it running for the slot or anything like that. Cargo, cargo, cargo. It even made KE a hefty profit this quarter, for example.
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Cargo, plus there are a bunch of people with international marriages (or children with different citizenship), dual citizenship, or citizenship and permanent residence on opposite sides of the Atlantic. Other categories that can travel freely include anyone in any sort of diplomatic post plus family, all employees of international organizations plus family, military plus family, and then those traveling for health care, first responder, or other essential work.
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I myself fall into the dual citizenship category, but am finding it hard to believe that there are really that many people who are able (or willing to) travel at the moment. I'm glad to see so many links restored though, so that those who need or want to travel have choices again. They must really be moving a lot of cargo.
Anecdotally, a good friend recently travelled YYZ-AMS and CDG-YYZ on KL and AF and while the outbound was fairly busy, the return in particular was wiped. I suppose a lot of Canadians must not be making use of their ability to enter the EU - perhaps the quarantine on return is a deterrent. |
I think the short answer is.. nothing in aviation is sustainable right now. I assume you are asking "why 3X daily flights instead of 1X?" - in which case there probably is an answer. Others have mentioned cargo which is definitely a component, but 3X daily ATL-AMS flights is a bit misleading in terms of overall passenger volumes.
Keep in mind that:
On a capacity-adjusted basis, taking 1, 2, and 3, it's the equivalent of probably 100+ TATL flights getting collapsed down to maybe 10 (across all of Delta's hubs). And of course, even those are flying only half full on restricted capacity. So no, it's not sustainable (cargo helps, but cargo rates have started to normalize a bit). On the flip side, even 3 flights a day out of ATL - which seems like a lot - is still a reflection of a 90%+ drop in total TATL lift even if on that particular route the capacity drop is far less. |
Originally Posted by liquidtoast
(Post 32592330)
I myself fall into the dual citizenship category, but am finding it hard to believe that there are really that many people who are able (or willing to) travel at the moment. I'm glad to see so many links restored though, so that those who need or want to travel have choices again. They must really be moving a lot of cargo.
Anecdotally, a good friend recently travelled YYZ-AMS and CDG-YYZ on KL and AF and while the outbound was fairly busy, the return in particular was wiped. I suppose a lot of Canadians must not be making use of their ability to enter the EU - perhaps the quarantine on return is a deterrent. |
Originally Posted by liquidtoast
(Post 32591064)
I've had a lot of time the last couple days and have been looking at everything flying across the ocean this summer, particularly on DL. Ex AMS today there are three departures to ATL alone (2x DL, 1x KL). With both countries essentially closed to each other, can this be sustainable? Does anyone have any idea what load factors on these flights look like right now? What about the DTW, SEA, BOS, JFK flights?
I would welcome any thoughts or anecdotes of people who have flown between the two continents lately. 1. The Summer TATL schedules were devised at a time when the prevailing assumption was that some significant amount of international; travel would be possible by mid-to-late summer. The hopes of April/May have, of course, given way to the realities of the present. 2. Delta's joint venture with AF/KL/VS means capacity decisions are undertaken in concert with those airlines. Specifically, the JV's terms require each airline to adhere to agreed-to capacity ratios as much as possible, or else face penalties in the distributions of monies from the JV. So are there probably some TATL flights DL would rather not operate? Sure, but it might be cheaper to operate the half empty flight than to take a financial hit from falling below minimum capacity requirements. On a related note, labor also factors into the equation insofar as Delta must not appear to be "outsourcing" its overseas flying to its partners. 3. The TATL schedule becomes far more realistic into September and especially October. Look at how little flying will take place this winter as a contrast. |
TATL Summer 2021
DL made changes to the winter 2020-21 schedules and summer 2021 schedules for TATL this past weekend. Of course both will change about 500 or more times each from now till then, but it’s still interesting to see where DL’s priorities lie and what they consider important in the network and which areas they think traffic will return first:
For summer 2021 TATL (Europe/Africa/Israel/India) compared to summer 2020 schedule: JFK: 5 of 27 nonstop routes suspended: Suspended: SNN, GLA, CPH, PRG, BOM Planned for S21: LHR, EDI, DUB, AMS, BRU, CDG, NCE, FRA, BER, ZRH, MXP, VCE, FCO, ATH, MAD, BCN, LIS, KEF, TLV, DSS, ACC, LOS. ATL: 5 of 17 nonstop routes suspended Suspended: MXP, VCE, BRU, ZRH, DUS Planned for S21: LHR, DUB, AMS, CDG, FRA, MUC, STR, FCO, MAD, BCN, LOS, JNB/CPT DTW: 2 of 6 nonstop routes suspended Suspended: MUC, FCO Planned for S21: LHR, AMS, CDG, FRA MSP: 1 of 4 nonstop routes suspended Suspended: KEF Planned for S21: LHR, AMS, CDG BOS: 5 of 9 nonstop routes suspended Suspended: LGW*, MAN*, EDI, LIS, FCO* Planned for S21: LHR, DUB, AMS, CDG *never even got to start as they were new for 2020 SEA: no drops, AMS and CDG still planned SLC: only keeping AMS; CDG and LHR dropped LAX: keeping CDG but dropping AMS PDX: keeping AMS but dropping LHR RDU-CDG: still planned for S21 CVG-CDG: still planned for S21 IND-CDG, MCO-AMS, TPA-AMS: all suspended right now for S21 So in total out of 76 nonstop routes across the Atlantic, they are keeping 52 so far for S21, which would be considered the peak of their TATL network for 2021. |
Originally Posted by ClipperDelta
(Post 32592614)
DL made changes to the winter 2020-21 schedules and summer 2021 schedules for TATL this past weekend. Of course both will change about 500 or more times each from now till then, but it’s still interesting to see where DL’s priorities lie and what they consider important in the network and which areas they think traffic will return first:
For summer 2021 TATL (Europe/Africa/Israel/India) compared to summer 2020 schedule: ATL: 5 of 17 nonstop routes suspended Suspended: MXP, VCE, BRU, ZRH, DUS Planned for S21: LHR, DUB, AMS, CDG, FRA, MUC, STR, FCO, MAD, BCN, LOS, JNB So in total out of 76 nonstop routes across the Atlantic, they are keeping 52 so far for S21, which would be considered the peak of their TATL network for 2021. |
Originally Posted by DCAhome
(Post 32592631)
I'm assuming the JNB includes CPT with the new "triangle" routing?
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Originally Posted by ClipperDelta
(Post 32592614)
DL made changes to the winter 2020-21 schedules and summer 2021 schedules for TATL this past weekend. Of course both will change about 500 or more times each from now till then, but it’s still interesting to see where DL’s priorities lie and what they consider important in the network and which areas they think traffic will return first:
For summer 2021 TATL (Europe/Africa/Israel/India) compared to summer 2020 schedule: JFK: 5 of 27 nonstop routes suspended: Suspended: SNN, GLA, CPH, PRG, BOM Planned for S21: LHR, EDI, DUB, AMS, BRU, CDG, NCE, FRA, BER, ZRH, MXP, VCE, FCO, ATH, MAD, BCN, LIS, KEF, TLV, DSS, ACC, LOS. ATL: 5 of 17 nonstop routes suspended Suspended: MXP, VCE, BRU, ZRH, DUS Planned for S21: LHR, DUB, AMS, CDG, FRA, MUC, STR, FCO, MAD, BCN, LOS, JNB/CPT DTW: 2 of 6 nonstop routes suspended Suspended: MUC, FCO Planned for S21: LHR, AMS, CDG, FRA MSP: 1 of 4 nonstop routes suspended Suspended: KEF Planned for S21: LHR, AMS, CDG BOS: 5 of 9 nonstop routes suspended Suspended: LGW*, MAN*, EDI, LIS, FCO* Planned for S21: LHR, DUB, AMS, CDG *never even got to start as they were new for 2020 SEA: no drops, AMS and CDG still planned SLC: only keeping AMS; CDG and LHR dropped LAX: keeping CDG but dropping AMS PDX: keeping AMS but dropping LHR RDU-CDG: still planned for S21 CVG-CDG: still planned for S21 IND-CDG, MCO-AMS, TPA-AMS: all suspended right now for S21 So in total out of 76 nonstop routes across the Atlantic, they are keeping 52 so far for S21, which would be considered the peak of their TATL network for 2021. |
DL Nonstop ORD-FRA
Oh Wise Delta FlyerTalkers,
Last Thursday near O'Hare I saw a Delta 777 fly over me. I was shocked to see a Delta wide body in Chicago and equally curious that a 777, that I thought had been phased out of the Delta fleet was still flying. I checked Plane Finder and noted that the Destination was Frankfurt. I forgot the flight number but I think it was DL 2406. Has Delta added Chicago as an Emphasis Market and running non-stops TATL or is this the pre- cursor to the imminent Delta-United Merger ? |
Originally Posted by gpicur
(Post 32592645)
Oh Wise Delta FlyerTalkers,
Last Thursday near O'Hare I saw a Delta 777 fly over me. I was shocked to see a Delta wide body in Chicago and equally curious that a 777, that I thought had been phased out of the Delta fleet was still flying. I checked Plane Finder and noted that the Destination was Frankfurt. I forgot the flight number but I think it was DL 2406. Has Delta added Chicago as an Emphasis Market and running non-stops TATL or is this the pre- cursor to the imminent Delta-United Merger ? |
Originally Posted by gpicur
(Post 32592645)
Last Thursday near O'Hare I saw a Delta 777 fly over me. I was shocked to see a Delta wide body in Chicago and equally curious that a 777, that I thought had been phased out of the Delta fleet was still flying.
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