Customer-unfriendly decision: 120-minute delay for a full refund
It appears that Delta just changed its policy on refunds.
Now, tickets issued on or after July 30 will qualify for a full refund if the arrival time has been delayed for 120 minutes or more (vs 90 minutes previously). In my opinion, this is a very bad decision for passengers. Passengers purchase specific flights for specific times. Why do airlines hold so much power in changing people’s schedules free of consequences? https://pro.delta.com/content/agency...on-policy.html |
At 2 hours, DL is well below the refund time limit set by most carriers serving the US.
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Originally Posted by Often1
(Post 32575750)
At 2 hours, DL is well below the refund time limit set by most carriers serving the US.
However, it’s still a pretty passenger unfriendly decision. And, I cannot understand how airlines can get away with altering the schedules without any consequences. Imagine that you as a passenger want to take a flight that departs or arrives an hour later or earlier. The airline would slap you with heavy fees and penalties. However, when they do that, it’s all ok. |
I think 2 hours is not an unreasonable threshold, though I try to avoid travel with tight scheduling requirements. Too many things can go wrong, so I make sure the critical phases of a trip have enough slack built in (e.g. arrive the day before for a meeting with a client).
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Originally Posted by smartytravel
(Post 32575759)
And, I cannot understand how airlines can get away with altering the schedules without any consequences.
Imagine that you as a passenger want to take a flight that departs or arrives an hour later or earlier. The airline would slap you with heavy fees and penalties. However, when they do that, it’s all ok. |
Originally Posted by LAX_Esq
(Post 32576225)
This guy gets it. The bootlickers will never get it.
DL, just like AA & UA, sells fully refundable tickets. It also sells deeply discounted tickets with various restrictions. Up to the passenger. All about consumer choice and not having someone else's choice rammed down your throat. |
Originally Posted by Often1
(Post 32576254)
The carriers don't "get away" with anything. Rather, passengers agree to contracts which provide for things they later find they dislike.
DL, just like AA & UA, sells fully refundable tickets. It also sells deeply discounted tickets with various restrictions. Up to the passenger. All about consumer choice and not having someone else's choice rammed down your throat. |
Originally Posted by Often1
(Post 32576254)
The carriers don't "get away" with anything. Rather, passengers agree to contracts which provide for things they later find they dislike.
DL, just like AA & UA, sells fully refundable tickets. It also sells deeply discounted tickets with various restrictions. Up to the passenger. All about consumer choice and not having someone else's choice rammed down your throat. https://www.transportation.gov/sites...%202020%29.pdf The Aviation Enforcement Office would consider the denial of refunds in contravention of the policies that were in effect at the time of the ticket purchase to be an unfair and deceptive practice. The Aviation Enforcement Office would consider a practice of retroactively applying a new definition of cancellation or significant change that disadvantages passengers who purchased tickets under a more generous cancellation or significant change definition to be unfair and deceptive United still doesn't define what "significant change" is, or when/if their policy changes. their "current" interpretation is 2 hours United's Jetstream site (equivalent of OP's link to DL's pro site) does say 2 hour or more https://jetstream.united.com/#/sub-l...6000006V2voEAC |
Over the years, Delta has made plenty of exceptions for me and made numerous goodwill gestures when life doesn’t go as planned. I’m not a 360, not even a DM.
I have no problem with them making very small tweaks like this to adjust to their new reality. DL and WN are still, by far, the most customer-friendly airlines around. |
Originally Posted by Often1
(Post 32576254)
DL, just like AA & UA, sells fully refundable tickets. It also sells deeply discounted tickets with various restrictions. Up to the passenger. All about consumer choice and not having someone else's choice rammed down your throat.
How can a passenger be deprived of what they pay for? imagine you prepay for a haircut at 5pm. Your barber calls you and TELLS you to come at 3pm instead. You’re at work, and barber keeps your money. Do you think that’s fair? if airlines can change by 120 minutes, why couldn’t passengers change by 120 minutes without consequences? further, I’m incessantly surprised that American consumers allow corporations to treat them so poorly. EDIT: many thanks to LAX_Esq for a proper analogy. |
Didn’t UA change their policy to 25 hours back in March. To me, that is much more unacceptable.
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Originally Posted by Mr. Tickets
(Post 32576505)
Didn’t UA change their policy to 25 hours back in March. To me, that is much more unacceptable.
https://viewfromthewing.com/united-r...cancellations/ |
Originally Posted by Often1
(Post 32576254)
Up to the passenger.
In case of any schedule change, the passenger should be able to choose. If a new itinerary doesn’t work for a passenger, the airlines MUST refund. Thats the only way we would see an improvement in customer service or operations. Right now, we see the sprint to the bottom, and Delta joins the pack. |
Originally Posted by smartytravel
(Post 32576427)
if airlines can change by 120 minutes, why couldn’t passengers change by 120 minutes without consequences?
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Originally Posted by smartytravel
(Post 32576427)
Regardless of whether a ticket is refundable or not, a passenger pays for a specific service. That includes departure time and arrival time.
How can a passenger be deprived of what they pay for? imagine you want to get a full haircut at a barber. Instead of giving you a haircut, the barber only trims your hair over the ears. Do you think that’s fair? if airlines can change by 120 minutes, why couldn’t passengers change by 120 minutes without consequences? further, I’m incessantly surprised that American consumers allow corporations to treat them so poorly. "published schedules, flight times, aircraft types, seat assignments, and similar details reflected in the ticket or Delta’s published schedules are not guaranteed and form no part of this contract." As to the notion that this is a contract of adhesion and thus voidable, that's just one of those social media urban myths. Simple solution is not to buy deeply discounted fares. Then you can cancel for any reason or no reason at all. Don't like the font on your boarding pass, the chime made by the BP reader, or the muzak played at your gate, just leave and call in at your leisure for your money. |
Originally Posted by Often1
(Post 32576738)
No, schedule is not. The passenger's contract with DL specifically provides:
"published schedules, flight times, aircraft types, seat assignments, and similar details reflected in the ticket or Delta’s published schedules are not guaranteed and form no part of this contract." As to the notion that this is a contract of adhesion and thus voidable, that's just one of those social media urban myths. Simple solution is not to buy deeply discounted fares. Then you can cancel for any reason or no reason at all. Don't like the font on your boarding pass, the chime made by the BP reader, or the muzak played at your gate, just leave and call in at your leisure for your money. Another simple solution is not to give crooked airline execs billion$ and trillion$ of taxpayer money in bailout$. |
Originally Posted by smartytravel
(Post 32576427)
further, I’m incessantly surprised that American consumers allow corporations to treat them so poorly.
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Originally Posted by Often1
(Post 32576738)
No, schedule is not. The passenger's contract with DL specifically provides:
"published schedules, flight times, aircraft types, seat assignments, and similar details reflected in the ticket or Delta’s published schedules are not guaranteed and form no part of this contract." Do you pay the barber without the expectation of getting a haircut? You pay, and the assumption is you’ll get a haircut within 15-30 minutes in a way that’s pleasing and nice. The airlines abuse lack of real competition, and idiot customers are clapping their hands asking to be ripped off more. People buy flights for specific times on specific segments, because they expect to be be delivered somewhere at a specific time and place. Theres no denying this. People don’t buy a ticket hoping they would get somewhere +/- 2 hours. That’s greed of the airlines. |
Originally Posted by s0ssos
(Post 32576860)
Simple. American consumers only want one thing. Cheap. Nothing else matters. They have no principles, other than cheapness. Which is also a religion here.
In europe, you can fly from London to Athens, or Madrid to Warsaw for $20-$100. The same distance in the US would be $300-$400. the price driven decisions is a myth fed by the airline executives so they can enjoy billion dollar profits. |
Originally Posted by LAX_Esq
(Post 32576840)
Who in this thread said anything about the contract being voidable? Nevertheless, it certainly is a contract of adhesion.
Another simple solution is not to give crooked airline execs billion$ and trillion$ of taxpayer money in bailout$. In free market and a true consumerist society, it would be on me, as a business, to convince a customer to select an alternative. Because a consumer can choose what to do, I’d stand on my head to offer the truly best customer service, perks and other benefits so consumer chooses the alternative. However, here we have a situation where airlines say “ops, sorry, we don’t guarantee any schedule, time, etc, though we will charge you premium for your desired time.” |
Originally Posted by smartytravel
(Post 32576427)
How can a passenger be deprived of what they pay for?
imagine you want to get a full haircut at a barber. Instead of giving you a haircut, the barber only trims your hair over the ears. Do you think that’s fair? if airlines can change by 120 minutes, why couldn’t passengers change by 120 minutes without consequences? and to be honest, if my barber called and asked me if I could come in an hour earlier or later, I'd probably be willing to accommodate |
Originally Posted by gitismatt
(Post 32577148)
and to be honest, if my barber called and asked me if I could come in an hour earlier or later, I'd probably be willing to accommodate
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Originally Posted by LAX_Esq
(Post 32577225)
The proper analogy is: you prepaid for a haircut at 5pm, and your barber TOLD you to come in at 3pm instead, when you have to be at work at 3pm, otherwise he's keeping your money and tough doodie.
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Originally Posted by smartytravel
(Post 32577227)
thats the analogy I was looking for! Thank you.
If you arrive more than two hours late, this is and extreme issue, so the answer is simply either book a cheap flight tow hours earlier, or pay more for the flight you want. Of course if it goes tech or there us a weather delay you still wont get there on time. Why is this a "Delta Problem" its pretty much a "transport problem" |
Originally Posted by BRITINJAPAN4
(Post 32577282)
I really dont get your problem. You buy a ticket that has some restrictions and in return the price is low. You have a choice, you could pay more for more flexibility, but you choose not to.
You pay more for a flexible ticket so YOU can unilaterally change it, not to protect yourself and prevent THE CARRIER from unilaterally changing it and screwing you over. |
Originally Posted by LAX_Esq
(Post 32577303)
You're getting it backwards. If you buy a cheaper ticket with restrictions and YOU want to change the ticket, you're SOL; or if you buy a more expensive ticket without restrictions and YOU want to change the ticket, you're good. In either case, if THE CARRIER is the one who is unilaterally changing the ticket, there's no reason why you should be SOL.
You pay more for a flexible ticket so YOU can unilaterally change it, not to protect yourself and prevent THE CARRIER from unilaterally changing it and screwing you over. If you have a flexible ticket and the flight is delayed you can change or cancel at any time, if you have a cheap restricted fare you have to wait until the flight is delayed more than two hours. How is this anyone screwing you over since in the terms of contract the schedule can be changed at any point. Delta, or any airline, is not hiding any of this, |
Originally Posted by BRITINJAPAN4
(Post 32577282)
I really dont get your problem. You buy a ticket that has some restrictions and in return the price is low. You have a choice, you could pay more for more flexibility, but you choose not to.
If you arrive more than two hours late, this is and extreme issue, so the answer is simply either book a cheap flight tow hours earlier, or pay more for the flight you want. Of course if it goes tech or there us a weather delay you still wont get there on time. Why is this a "Delta Problem" its pretty much a "transport problem" |
Originally Posted by s0ssos
(Post 32577317)
Actually have you ever tried to buy a fully refundable ticket? I have. And when I tried to get a refund they said I couldn't.
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Originally Posted by BRITINJAPAN4
(Post 32577305)
You have lost me here.
If you have a flexible ticket and the flight is delayed you can change or cancel at any time, if you have a cheap restricted fare you have to wait until the flight is delayed more than two hours. How is this anyone screwing you over since in the terms of contract the schedule can be changed at any point. Delta, or any airline, is not hiding any of this, |
Originally Posted by LAX_Esq
(Post 32577321)
You're missing the point, which is even expressly stated in the thread title -- that the carrier drafting their contract to allow themselves to unilaterally change your flight by 120 minutes without offering you a refund is a "consumer-unfriendly decision," i.e., screwing customers over.
You do know that airlines are a commercial business intended to make money for their owners, don't you ? |
Originally Posted by BRITINJAPAN4
(Post 32577326)
No, I get that this is a complaint, I just think that when you get a benefit ( lower price) with a very clear and published Restriction, then this is not customer unfriendly. If they said fly from a to b at $500, no choices, that would be customer unfriendly.
You do know that airlines are a commercial business intended to make money for their owners, don't you ? |
Originally Posted by LAX_Esq
(Post 32577225)
The proper analogy is: you prepaid for a haircut at 5pm, and your barber TOLD you to come in at 3pm instead, when you have to be at work at 3pm, otherwise he's keeping your money and tough doodie.
At least, that corresponds to what has always happened for me, even when changes were under 90 minutes. |
Originally Posted by sethb
(Post 32577344)
No, if you can't make it then you get an appointment tomorrow instead or a certificate for a haircut later.
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A better analogy would be a barber who was running ten minutes late. The time scale involved in travelling 500 to 10,000 miles is somewhat different than for a haircut.
A new, positive factor in the changes in schedule timing is the numbers of markets with increasing, not decreasing, service. I am flying ATL-PNS for business regularly right now. I had gotten used to leaving ATL on an 8:30 PM flight and returning on a 4:30 PM flight. Now they have 5 flights each way each day (In April there were only 2 and in July 4). So I had a reservation change to pick flights on either side of my previously booked times. This is a good story for consumers. |
Originally Posted by No_Name
(Post 32575838)
I think 2 hours is not an unreasonable threshold, though I try to avoid travel with tight scheduling requirements. Too many things can go wrong, so I make sure the critical phases of a trip have enough slack built in (e.g. arrive the day before for a meeting with a client).
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Originally Posted by Justin026
(Post 32577894)
A better analogy would be a barber who was running ten minutes late. The time scale involved in travelling 500 to 10,000 miles is somewhat different than for a haircut.
However, airlines give themselves a right to screw passengers by altering schedule and giving no recourse to passengers. As LAX_Esq noted, the point of fairness and justice is to allow consumer decide what she wants to do, and not keep her money and force her to continue using the service that no loner works for her. |
Originally Posted by sethb
(Post 32577344)
No, if you can't make it then you get an appointment tomorrow instead or a certificate for a haircut later.
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Originally Posted by Justin026
(Post 32577894)
A better analogy would be a barber who was running ten minutes late. The time scale involved in travelling 500 to 10,000 miles is somewhat different than for a haircut.
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Originally Posted by ethernal
(Post 32577915)
Delta is happy to reap the revenue increase from that published time. But then on the flip side, if they cancel the 8:30 AM and put everyone on the 6:30 AM, then they are saying there is zero (contractual) recourse available to the customer. Good luck getting that $200 premium you paid back.
I really don't see how Delta, or any airline for that matter, would be able to operate in the way some posters advocate without charging significantly higher prices. Increased risk means higher costs, which means higher prices. I prefer to manage the risk of a two hour delay myself and take the reduced air fare as it is a more cost effective solution (from my perspective). |
Originally Posted by smartytravel
(Post 32577086)
Do you pay the barber without the expectation of getting a haircut? You pay, and the assumption is you’ll get a haircut within 15-30 minutes in a way that’s pleasing and nice. |
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