Customer-unfriendly decision: 120-minute delay for a full refund
#61
Original Poster
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 979
None of this has to do with the simple fact that DL does not contract or otherwise agree to maintain a specific schedule and that the customer expressly agrees that DL may not be able to do so.
If you have a ticket contract which includes provisions by which DL agrees to run within 5 minutes of schedule, you have a beef. Otherwise, the assertion that DL has contractually committed to a specific schedule means that you either disregarded the contract when you purchased or read it but choose to ignore it now.
If you have a ticket contract which includes provisions by which DL agrees to run within 5 minutes of schedule, you have a beef. Otherwise, the assertion that DL has contractually committed to a specific schedule means that you either disregarded the contract when you purchased or read it but choose to ignore it now.
#62
Join Date: Sep 2016
Programs: DL PM, Marriott, IHG
Posts: 193
And, that's what the conversation is about above. Just because Delta or other airlines indemnify themselves from any obligation does not mean that they shouldn't have that obligation. We provided an example of a barber who wants to shift a haircut by 2 hours and then holds on to the money without refunding.
Example 1: In most cases, if I hire a lawyer and agree to pay them for their time and expenses, I don't get a refund if the outcome is not what I wanted. When lawyers take on a client and payment is only made if you win, the lawyer is much more selective or charges more for their time.
Example 2: If I want a construction contractor to finish a job on a specific date and they miss that date because the city fails to issue a certificate of occupancy, I'm going to be sued if I don't pay (or the property seized if they placed a lien). I also won't be offered a refund if I paid upfront. If I brought action to avoid paying or recover funds, I would likely fail if the contractor demonstrated that they put forth a good faith effort.
#63
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: LAX
Programs: AA PLT / 2MM
Posts: 2,113
Many businesses indemnify themselves from certain outcomes. In many cases they don't even need to explicitly state the outcomes. In the US, the UCC codifies the concept of good faith.
Example 1: In most cases, if I hire a lawyer and agree to pay them for their time and expenses, I don't get a refund if the outcome is not what I wanted. When lawyers take on a client and payment is only made if you win, the lawyer is much more selective or charges more for their time.
Example 2: If I want a construction contractor to finish a job on a specific date and they miss that date because the city fails to issue a certificate of occupancy, I'm going to be sued if I don't pay (or the property seized if they placed a lien). I also won't be offered a refund if I paid upfront. If I brought action to avoid paying or recover funds, I would likely fail if the contractor demonstrated that they put forth a good faith effort.
Example 1: In most cases, if I hire a lawyer and agree to pay them for their time and expenses, I don't get a refund if the outcome is not what I wanted. When lawyers take on a client and payment is only made if you win, the lawyer is much more selective or charges more for their time.
Example 2: If I want a construction contractor to finish a job on a specific date and they miss that date because the city fails to issue a certificate of occupancy, I'm going to be sued if I don't pay (or the property seized if they placed a lien). I also won't be offered a refund if I paid upfront. If I brought action to avoid paying or recover funds, I would likely fail if the contractor demonstrated that they put forth a good faith effort.
People in this thread don't seem to like analogies, so I'll take the liberty of saying that I think your two analogies are not helpful. It seems perfectly logical and fair that a lawyer getting paid by the hour doesn't have to bear the risk of not getting paid if he loses a client's garbage case, and that a contractor doesn't have to bear the risk of not getting paid if he blew a deadline because of some governmental inaction that's outside of his hands. Further, the customers in these examples can bargain for these various outcomes -- or do business with other providers since the free market is actually at work in the legal and contractor industries. In contract, it's not at all logical for the airline pax to solely bear the consequences of the airline unilaterally shifting the flight time by two hours. Plus, the airline pax doesn't even have any bargaining power in this contract of adhesion situation in an oligopolistic industry.
#64
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: 4éme
Posts: 12,038
And, that's what the conversation is about above. Just because Delta or other airlines indemnify themselves from any obligation does not mean that they shouldn't have that obligation. We provided an example of a barber who wants to shift a haircut by 2 hours and then holds on to the money without refunding.
#65
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: BNA
Programs: HH Gold. (Former) UA PP, DL PM, PC Plat
Posts: 8,184
I do. I get a discount from SportClips for buying a six-haircut 'Season Ticket'. They don't punch my ticket until each haircut is finished and no guarantees on when I'll be seated.
The nature of transportation is that you can't guarantee schedules. A line must be drawn somewhere. Either 90 or 120 minutes seem reasonable to me. Do any major network carriers use a shorter cutoff? I don't know.
The nature of transportation is that you can't guarantee schedules. A line must be drawn somewhere. Either 90 or 120 minutes seem reasonable to me. Do any major network carriers use a shorter cutoff? I don't know.
#66
Join Date: Feb 2017
Programs: DL DM, UA Gold, Alaska MVP, Bonvoy (lol) Ambassador
Posts: 2,994
Airlines take advantage of speculative schedules to do demand sensing. Basically teasing consumers with schedules they never intended to fly to see if - maybe afterall - they should fly the route. And then cut it later. It's little better than false advertising. Anything that reduces this is a good thing, not a bad thing. The idea that airlines are somehow special that they should be able to advertise routes they never intend to fly (or have not done enough due diligence on) is silly.
#67
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: BNA
Programs: DL GM, HH Diamond
Posts: 1,027
Airlines take advantage of speculative schedules to do demand sensing. Basically teasing consumers with schedules they never intended to fly to see if - maybe afterall - they should fly the route. And then cut it later. It's little better than false advertising. Anything that reduces this is a good thing, not a bad thing. The idea that airlines are somehow special that they should be able to advertise routes they never intend to fly (or have not done enough due diligence on) is silly.
#68
Original Poster
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 979
you are wrong. If they can put you on a plane that arrives within 2 hours on either side, you’re out of luck for your refund.
You bought this flight departing at 8am arriving at 11am? Nope, now you gotta be catching a flight at 6am, or else you’ll lose your money.
Similarly, you may be forced to take a 10am flight and miss important arrangements later in the day, just because someone else decided to change your schedule.
You bought this flight departing at 8am arriving at 11am? Nope, now you gotta be catching a flight at 6am, or else you’ll lose your money.
Similarly, you may be forced to take a 10am flight and miss important arrangements later in the day, just because someone else decided to change your schedule.
#69
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Tokyo
Programs: Bonvoy LT Titanium ANA Diamond
Posts: 763
And, that's what the conversation is about above. Just because Delta or other airlines indemnify themselves from any obligation does not mean that they shouldn't have that obligation. We provided an example of a barber who wants to shift a haircut by 2 hours and then holds on to the money without refunding.
#70
Original Poster
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 979
But they give the customer a very straight forward choice. Low price but airline is indemnified in case of a schedule change within a 2 hour window, or High price but complete flexibility. seems the OP wants the low price with no restrictions, what possible incentive does the airline have to offer that ?
1. What low prices are we talking about? Can I, like in Europe, fly the distance equal to London-Athens in the US, and still pay $20-$100? No. The same distance in the US would be $200-300. US airlines just feed everyone with crap about the choice between cheap prices and no-frills flying.
2. If I want flexibility for MY OWN choices, then I purchase my own fully changeable and refundable ticket. However, I’m typically very set and certain about my decisions and I purchase flights based on specific departure and arrival times. Why am I being penalized and forced to accept something that the AIRLINE decides to do? If they want flexibility, they need to pay to passengers. The payment here is the full refund to passengers who do not agree to new departure or arrival times.
#71
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: LAX
Programs: AA PLT / 2MM
Posts: 2,113
But they give the customer a very straight forward choice. Low price but airline is indemnified in case of a schedule change within a 2 hour window, or High price but complete flexibility. seems the OP wants the low price with no restrictions, what possible incentive does the airline have to offer that ?
#72
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: BNA
Programs: DL GM, HH Diamond
Posts: 1,027
you are wrong. If they can put you on a plane that arrives within 2 hours on either side, you’re out of luck for your refund.
You bought this flight departing at 8am arriving at 11am? Nope, now you gotta be catching a flight at 6am, or else you’ll lose your money.
Similarly, you may be forced to take a 10am flight and miss important arrangements later in the day, just because someone else decided to change your schedule.
You bought this flight departing at 8am arriving at 11am? Nope, now you gotta be catching a flight at 6am, or else you’ll lose your money.
Similarly, you may be forced to take a 10am flight and miss important arrangements later in the day, just because someone else decided to change your schedule.
Not ideal, not customer friendly, sure, but reasonable all the same.
#74
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Back in Reds Country (DAY/CVG). Previously: SEA & SAT.
Programs: DL PM 1MM, AA PLAT, UA Silver, Marriott Bonvoy Titanium
Posts: 10,348
We seem to be talking past each other.
1. What low prices are we talking about? Can I, like in Europe, fly the distance equal to London-Athens in the US, and still pay $20-$100? No. The same distance in the US would be $200-300. US airlines just feed everyone with crap about the choice between cheap prices and no-frills flying.
2. If I want flexibility for MY OWN choices, then I purchase my own fully changeable and refundable ticket. However, I’m typically very set and certain about my decisions and I purchase flights based on specific departure and arrival times. Why am I being penalized and forced to accept something that the AIRLINE decides to do? If they want flexibility, they need to pay to passengers. The payment here is the full refund to passengers who do not agree to new departure or arrival times.
1. What low prices are we talking about? Can I, like in Europe, fly the distance equal to London-Athens in the US, and still pay $20-$100? No. The same distance in the US would be $200-300. US airlines just feed everyone with crap about the choice between cheap prices and no-frills flying.
2. If I want flexibility for MY OWN choices, then I purchase my own fully changeable and refundable ticket. However, I’m typically very set and certain about my decisions and I purchase flights based on specific departure and arrival times. Why am I being penalized and forced to accept something that the AIRLINE decides to do? If they want flexibility, they need to pay to passengers. The payment here is the full refund to passengers who do not agree to new departure or arrival times.
#75
Join Date: Sep 2016
Programs: DL PM, Marriott, IHG
Posts: 193
According to a paper (DOI: 10.1109/IC3INA.2014.7042596), the departure delays for Garuda Airlines from Djuanda in excess of 120 minutes is less than 0.5% of the flights. Those values are also consistent for United Airlines departures from Denver. According to a NASA paper (AIAA 2002-5866), 91% of the delays (in the year 2000) are due to problems outside the control of an airline (weather, traffic delays, runway delays, and ATC equipment problems). In general, airlines have done a good job in reducing delays due to factors within their control.