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Report: Delta considering trading 717s to Boeing for 737MAX jets

Report: Delta considering trading 717s to Boeing for 737MAX jets

Old Apr 21, 2020, 8:01 pm
  #16  
 
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Originally Posted by ethernal
It's certainly true that Hawaiian needs something with an engine that can do their 20 minute turns day-in-and-day-out with. But at most that is 5-7 lower cycle frames. Delta's 717 fleet of 90 is 50% larger than Hawaii's entire fleet (which only has 20 717s). Hawaiian already has enough 717s with enough cycles left to last another 10-15 years so even in "normal" times there is only so much justification they can do to acquire even more 717 frames.

So, maybe there is value slightly above scrap. But we're talking de minimus. Boeing would view this entirely as a cost with very little asset value transfer.
Yup, any remarketing to HA would simply be gravy on top of the transaction for Boeing, and I agree they'd probably write down the value of the frames to zero when the deal closes.

HA has already swapped out their 717s for lower cycle versions a couple times in the past as they've become available on the used market, and they've explicitly said they'd want to do it again if possible; that won't save the fleet of 90, but it's not hard to imagine them agreeing to replace their existing 20 again.

Honestly, I could also see Boeing keeping these around in deep storage for the rest of 2020 in case the economy recovers faster than expected and Delta has a change of heart, although I think once the A220 deliveries ramp up that becomes highly, highly unlikely to ever happen.
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Old Apr 21, 2020, 8:06 pm
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Originally Posted by rylan
Doesn't how much software you throw at the MAX... you can't fix inherent aerodynamic instability with magic code.
Well, the Boeing 737MAX isn't aerodynamically unstable so that doesn't even need to be a consideration. And technically magic code does fix aerodynamic instability given that most fighter jets fly perfectly fine and are aerodynamically unstable by design. But my guess is that you don't even know what aerodynamic stability actually is and you are just regurgitating sensationalist talking points.

Boeing made some egregious and embarrassing mistakes in their design and development process - including completely bungled disclosure to regulators. The fact that they didn't ground the fleet after initial investigation of the first accident borders on criminal. But all this nonsense that the MAX will not be a safe plane upon re-certification is just garbage.

The MAX will fly again and it will be safe - not earthshatteringly so, but as safe as the 737NG which is a perfectly decent airliner.

Now, I hate 737s because of narrow seats and terrible airflow (partly Delta's configuration, partly under-powered ground AC systems) - but it will be foolish to avoid the 737MAX for safety reasons.
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Old Apr 21, 2020, 8:16 pm
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This will also help cut down maintenance. The accelerated retirements of the MD series and now the 717, will alleviate 2 pilot pools and 3 oddball engines types. Kinda sad to see all the tail mounted engine jets going away though.
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Old Apr 21, 2020, 8:22 pm
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Originally Posted by rylan
Doesn't how much software you throw at the MAX... you can't fix inherent aerodynamic instability with magic code.
The B-2 and F-16 among other military aircraft types prove you can fix inherent aerodynamic instability with software. Now should that be true for a commercial airliner carrying civilian passengers where that inherent instability provides no tactical or operational value? Probably not.
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Old Apr 21, 2020, 8:53 pm
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What is it with people taking rumor articles from unknown people's blogs and taking it as truthful factual reporting? Let's begin with the fact that the 717's serve different routes/missions from their current fleet of 737 and A320's. Unless there is going to be a real boom for travel coming up and they are taking an equal number of A220's or CR9's to replace 717 routes this makes little to no sense.

Last edited by FlyDeltaMD88; Apr 21, 2020 at 9:00 pm
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Old Apr 21, 2020, 8:57 pm
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Originally Posted by ATOBTTR
The B-2 and F-16 among other military aircraft types prove you can fix inherent aerodynamic instability with software. Now should that be true for a commercial airliner carrying civilian passengers where that inherent instability provides no tactical or operational value? Probably not.
Military aircraft come with ejector seat standard. Fallback options on commercial aircraft are more limited.
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Old Apr 21, 2020, 9:12 pm
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Originally Posted by geminidreams
Military aircraft come with ejector seat standard. Fallback options on commercial aircraft are more limited.
The two military aircraft I flew on regularly as aircrew don’t come with ejection seats standard (one did carry emergency parachutes for the crew though - 2 chutes for a minimum crew of 3, hah).
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Old Apr 21, 2020, 9:51 pm
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I think it's a little more plausible that Boeing wants to cease supporting the legacy McDonnell Douglas products as soon as possible, proposed a sweet heart deal and Delta said "tell us more".

My employer has tons of legacy equipment with LTS agreements, buildings full of it. Our vendors are always trying to propose swaps to get our oddball junk out of service so they can stop supporting it now instead of five years from now.
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Old Apr 21, 2020, 10:32 pm
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Originally Posted by Error 601
I think it's a little more plausible that Boeing wants to cease supporting the legacy McDonnell Douglas products as soon as possible, proposed a sweet heart deal and Delta said "tell us more".

My employer has tons of legacy equipment with LTS agreements, buildings full of it. Our vendors are always trying to propose swaps to get our oddball junk out of service so they can stop supporting it now instead of five years from now.
The problem with this theory is that there are still other non-Delta users of the 717 worldwide, including Hawaiian - who will probably hold onto them until the wings fall off, since there isn't a great alternative out there for the kind of repeated intra-island flying that's their bread and butter.
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Old Apr 21, 2020, 10:33 pm
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Originally Posted by FlyEndeavorAir
What is it with people taking rumor articles from unknown people's blogs and taking it as truthful factual reporting? Let's begin with the fact that the 717's serve different routes/missions from their current fleet of 737 and A320's. Unless there is going to be a real boom for travel coming up and they are taking an equal number of A220's or CR9's to replace 717 routes this makes little to no sense.
It wouldn't be a direct replacement - the A220 would replace the 717 in the short term, and then the 737MAX will replace MD-88/90/A320/757 retirements in a few years. The 737MAX aircraft likely wouldn't be delivered for a while.
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Old Apr 21, 2020, 10:41 pm
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Originally Posted by BenA
It wouldn't be a direct replacement - the A220 would replace the 717 in the short term, and then the 737MAX will replace MD-88/90/A320/757 retirements in a few years. The 737MAX aircraft likely wouldn't be delivered for a while.
I guess, but with Delta having a large fleet of 739's and A321's along with still receiving some A321's and A321NEO"s in the future this seems weird. The 717 is a great aircraft supplying a mainline aircraft to airports that would normally see RJ's like HPN for example. The A220 is also a very nice aircraft and could replace the 717 but the 737MAX just seems like too much aircraft for Delta's needs, especially with the uncertainty of the current situation and demand for travel being down.
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Old Apr 21, 2020, 10:47 pm
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Originally Posted by FlyEndeavorAir
I guess, but with Delta having a large fleet of 739's and A321's along with still receiving some A321's and A321NEO"s in the future this seems weird. The 717 is a great aircraft supplying a mainline aircraft to airports that would normally see RJ's like HPN for example. The A220 is also a very nice aircraft and could replace the 717 but the 737MAX just seems like too much aircraft for Delta's needs, especially with the uncertainty of the current situation and demand for travel being down.
The Airbus orders were already slotted in to replace previously planned retirements. Because of COVID-19, Delta has rapidly retired many more aircraft than they were planning on, and that trend is likely to continue. When the market recovers, they'll need lots more narrowbody capacity unless they plan to bring back airplanes from the desert.

Don't forget Delta also has a lot of 20-year old 737-800s that are getting on up there in years; a smaller 737MAX8 sized replacement could be perfect for those.
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Old Apr 21, 2020, 11:31 pm
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Originally Posted by jrkmsp
It actually makes even more sense when you play it out, as per Ed Russell (formerly of FlightGlobal, now at The Points Guy):
OT, wondering if The Points Guy has now become a respectable journalist institution, as I have basically ignored anything they said
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Old Apr 21, 2020, 11:34 pm
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Originally Posted by s0ssos
OT, wondering if The Points Guy has now become a respectable journalist institution, as I have basically ignored anything they said
I know and respect several their recent journalism hires. Ed, Ben, Scott. I still have qualms with their site as a whole, but I trust the three of them to do good work.
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Old Apr 22, 2020, 5:06 am
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This would be a really bad move.
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