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Atlanta Journal Constitution: DOT disallows Delta ban on pit bulls as service animals

Atlanta Journal Constitution: DOT disallows Delta ban on pit bulls as service animals

Old Aug 16, 19, 12:55 pm
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Originally Posted by WillBarrett_68 View Post
so you had a bad experience because of a drunk passenger and somehow the solution is to crack down on dogs.
Once again your reading comprehension has failed you. I never said anything about the drunk guy bothering me. I actually think he would have been quite fun to hang out with. I imagine his day was far more interesting than mine!
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Old Aug 16, 19, 12:59 pm
  #92  
 
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Originally Posted by kipper View Post
If an ESA is "needed" for anxiety, it is usually the act of touching the ESA in some way that helps. Crating the animal won't help the person who needs it.
If someone's anxiety is that high that they need to touch an animal all the time, they shouldn't be flying. Flying is inherently stressful even for those of us without ESAs.

ESA should stand for: Entitled Snowflake American. Yet another Americanism that makes us look like fools to the rest of the World.
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Old Aug 16, 19, 1:04 pm
  #93  
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Originally Posted by kipper View Post
How do you test an ESA that is supposed to help with anxiety? What about one that is supposed to help with depression? Do you find a stranger suffering from anxiety and see if the animal helps them? Or a person suffering with depression? Oftentimes, the bond between the animal and the human is part of what helps and you cannot test that with a stranger. Likewise, what works for one person with anxiety or depression may not work for another. It is relatively easy to test service dogs, because they have been trained to perform a specific skill. It isn't quite as easy with an ESA.
You can test the behavior of the ESA. Behavior in public is part of the way genuine service dogs are trained. They're supposed to cope with crowds, not bark/snarl/lunge for no reason related to their special task(s), walk nicely and stay near the owner unless commanded otherwise, etc. A true service dog wouldn't snarl at another animal it sees or lick a stranger, and it would stay it its own space.
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Old Aug 16, 19, 2:07 pm
  #94  
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Originally Posted by MSPeconomist View Post
You can test the behavior of the ESA. Behavior in public is part of the way genuine service dogs are trained. They're supposed to cope with crowds, not bark/snarl/lunge for no reason related to their special task(s), walk nicely and stay near the owner unless commanded otherwise, etc. A true service dog wouldn't snarl at another animal it sees or lick a stranger, and it would stay it its own space.
There's a difference between a service dog and an ESA. Also, any dog can have times where their behavior is off. An ESA could growl or snarl at another animal it sees, if it feels the other animal is a threat (like if the other dog is close to attacking the ESA's human). Growling and snarling is one way dogs communicate. If they feel another dog or even a person is a threat, they may growl to communicate that. Empress Cobaka, who isn't an ESA or a service dog, but who loves all people, growled once, when she felt another person was a threat towards me. As a side note, I would much rather have a dog growl than not, because a growl tells me a dog is unhappy before they bite. A dog that has been trained not to growl may simply attack without audible warning.
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Old Aug 16, 19, 2:30 pm
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Originally Posted by kipper View Post
How do you test an ESA that is supposed to help with anxiety? What about one that is supposed to help with depression?
You don't. There's no claim that these dogs have specific training.
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Old Aug 16, 19, 2:42 pm
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Originally Posted by HDQDD View Post
Once again your reading comprehension has failed you. I never said anything about the drunk guy bothering me. I actually think he would have been quite fun to hang out with. I imagine his day was far more interesting than mine!
All you did was complain about his behavior, you didn't mention anything his dog did at all, other than get growled at by the dog next to you.
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Old Aug 16, 19, 3:21 pm
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Originally Posted by WillBarrett_68 View Post
All you did was complain about his behavior, you didn't mention anything his dog did at all, other than get growled at by the dog next to you.
I did no such complaining. I actually thought he was quite amusing. I was merely pointing out his behavior since it involved an ESA
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Old Aug 16, 19, 3:22 pm
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Originally Posted by WillBarrett_68 View Post
You don't. There's no claim that these dogs have specific training.
However, the USDOT doesn't seem to have a problem with Delta requiring passengers wishing to travel with ESAs to certify that they have been trained to behave in public in a general fashion.

https://www.delta.com/content/dam/de...-4-17-2019.pdf

"I confirm that this animal has been trained to behave in a public setting and takes my direction upon command. (Mark check box to confirm.)"

"I assume full responsibility for the behavior of this animal, including its interaction with crew, other passengers or their property while onboard the aircraft. I understand that I will be expected to reimburse Delta or its passengers for any loss, damage or expense resulting from any misbehavior by my animal. (Mark check box to confirm.)"

I think people would have a lot fewer concerns about ESAs if the standards for public behavior of dogs was as high in the USA as it was in much of Europe. I've never had a dog over there lunge at me while I was walking/running/hiking because society demands they be taught not to (and if you go by body language, those well trained dogs are very very happy pups too) while over here, I have to kind of expect to take evasive maneuvers at least once every time I go out to run.
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Old Aug 16, 19, 3:55 pm
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I lost a cat to a dog attack by Staffordshire dogs about 10 years ago. Dogs got loose, came onto my property and attacked my cat in my back yard. So I'm not a big fan.

I have a suggestion. All you people that are so insistent these animals are safe can sit next to them on the plane the next time you fly. The rest of us can sit with the people.

I suffer from depression but I don't need a fake service animal to feel better when I travel.

It seems ridiculous that some of you, even when presented with statistics still insist that most dogs are safe, despite some evidence to the contrary.
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Old Aug 16, 19, 4:23 pm
  #100  
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Originally Posted by zitsky View Post
I lost a cat to a dog attack by Staffordshire dogs about 10 years ago. Dogs got loose, came onto my property and attacked my cat in my back yard. So I'm not a big fan.

I have a suggestion. All you people that are so insistent these animals are safe can sit next to them on the plane the next time you fly. The rest of us can sit with the people.

I suffer from depression but I don't need a fake service animal to feel better when I travel.

It seems ridiculous that some of you, even when presented with statistics still insist that most dogs are safe, despite some evidence to the contrary.
I will happily sit next to a pit bull on flights. The biggest risks I have with most is my face being licked raw from all of the kisses or choking from the gas most have. I forgot about their tails, if they have full tails. Those things are thin and can go a mile a minute. They can hurt when being whacked against you!
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Old Aug 16, 19, 4:35 pm
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Originally Posted by kipper View Post
I will happily sit next to a pit bull on flights. The biggest risks I have with most is my face being licked raw from all of the kisses or choking from the gas most have. I forgot about their tails, if they have full tails. Those things are thin and can go a mile a minute. They can hurt when being whacked against you!
Ok I'll add your name to the list.
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Old Aug 16, 19, 4:38 pm
  #102  
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Originally Posted by kipper View Post
There's a difference between a service dog and an ESA. Also, any dog can have times where their behavior is off. An ESA could growl or snarl at another animal it sees, if it feels the other animal is a threat (like if the other dog is close to attacking the ESA's human). Growling and snarling is one way dogs communicate. If they feel another dog or even a person is a threat, they may growl to communicate that. Empress Cobaka, who isn't an ESA or a service dog, but who loves all people, growled once, when she felt another person was a threat towards me. As a side note, I would much rather have a dog growl than not, because a growl tells me a dog is unhappy before they bite. A dog that has been trained not to growl may simply attack without audible warning.
Of course most dogs (including genuine service dogs) would react if their owner is threatened (that's why my post said "for no reason"), but they can and should be trained not to growl at some other animal across the room that's not interacting with them. ESAs don't perform any particular task, but they can and should be trained to behave in the situations into which they're being taken, including airports and airplanes. In fact, it would not be unreasonable to expect a true ESA to be trained along the lines of the "certified" animals that officially visit hospitals, nursing homes, airports, etc. to provide emotional support.
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Old Aug 16, 19, 5:04 pm
  #103  
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Originally Posted by zitsky View Post
Ok I'll add your name to the list.
I love pibbles.
Originally Posted by MSPeconomist View Post
Of course most dogs (including genuine service dogs) would react if their owner is threatened (that's why my post said "for no reason"), but they can and should be trained not to growl at some other animal across the room that's not interacting with them. ESAs don't perform any particular task, but they can and should be trained to behave in the situations into which they're being taken, including airports and airplanes. In fact, it would not be unreasonable to expect a true ESA to be trained along the lines of the "certified" animals that officially visit hospitals, nursing homes, airports, etc. to provide emotional support.
I agree that they should be trained to behave, and could agree with an ESA being required to pass the TDI testing requirements for behavior. I don't think you can test an ESA's abilities at relieving anxiety, depression, etc.
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Old Aug 16, 19, 5:43 pm
  #104  
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Originally Posted by zitsky View Post
I lost a cat to a dog attack by Staffordshire dogs about 10 years ago. Dogs got loose, came onto my property and attacked my cat in my back yard. So I'm not a big fan.

I have a suggestion. All you people that are so insistent these animals are safe can sit next to them on the plane the next time you fly. The rest of us can sit with the people.

I suffer from depression but I don't need a fake service animal to feel better when I travel.

It seems ridiculous that some of you, even when presented with statistics still insist that most dogs are safe, despite some evidence to the contrary.
No one here has said dogs don't attack. However a number of us have pointed out that pit bulls arent anymore likely to me the attacker than other types of dogs. Regardless most dogs are safe, just as most humans are also. What seems ridiculous is the number of posters that are equating saying "pit bulls dont attack any more than others," with "dogs don't attack."
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Old Aug 16, 19, 5:55 pm
  #105  
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Thanks to all who contributed to this discussion. Now, I believe it is time to move on.
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