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Atlanta Journal Constitution: DOT disallows Delta ban on pit bulls as service animals

Atlanta Journal Constitution: DOT disallows Delta ban on pit bulls as service animals

Old Aug 9, 19, 8:25 am
  #16  
 
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Originally Posted by lupine View Post
Can the airline evaluate what "fully trained service animal" means? I believe that they may be obligated to take the passenger's word that the animal is a fully trained service animal. (At least, that seems to be the ADA requirement. Not sure if ACA varies on that.) We had an employee that self-trained a dog to provide support for his frequent loss of balance. The National Park Service was required to accept the dog as a service dog.
There is no certification body that declares whether a dog is "fully-trained" or not. Self-trained animals are legally permitted to act as service animals.
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Old Aug 9, 19, 8:28 am
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I'd love to see any actual evidence people have about the "pit bull breed" (which isn't even a thing) being inherently more dangerous. As far as I can see it's just a bunch of handwringing and confirmation bias.
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Old Aug 9, 19, 11:33 am
  #18  
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1a. Pits, bulldogs, Staffordshires, bull terriers, etc. are all fine dogs. No better or worse than other domesticated breeds; all breeds have their pros/cons.
1b. Poorly trained/treated dogs of any breed can be problematic.
2. There needs to be more stringent regulation/certification of true service animals. "True service animals" being those which the person literally cannot ordinarily function without (this could even include actual, non-pet ESAs).
3. With #2 , airlines and other companies/etc. will be able to successfully differentiate restrictions between true service animals and pets (including pets masquerading as ESAs).
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Old Aug 9, 19, 12:36 pm
  #19  
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Originally Posted by WillBarrett_68 View Post
There is no certification body that declares whether a dog is "fully-trained" or not. Self-trained animals are legally permitted to act as service animals.
The "fully trained" wording is curious since AFAIK the standard for a service animal is that it be trained to perform a specific task for the owner (maybe turn on a light switch or alert when blood sugar is a problem) with no requirement of any further training. A dog could be feral or very badly behaved and if it is trained for just one task, no matter how minor, it's a service animal and no one is allowed to question its training.

The OP seems to suggest that DOT has no problem with DL banning pit bulls (and maybe other breeds) as ESAs, just not as genuine service dogs.
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Old Aug 9, 19, 1:49 pm
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See https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/31398266-post499.html.

New rules are coming. "Officials are developing new rules governing what types of animals will be allowed to accompany passengers on flights and what documentation will be required to determine whether the animal’s presence is a legitimate need. Proposed regulations are expected to be released by the department later this year and it’s possible new rules could be in place next summer or fall, officials said."
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Old Aug 9, 19, 1:56 pm
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Originally Posted by MSPeconomist View Post
[left][left]The "fully trained" wording is curious since AFAIK the standard for a service animal is that it be trained to perform a specific task for the owner (maybe turn on a light switch or alert when blood sugar is a problem) with no requirement of any further training. A dog could be feral or very badly behaved and if it is trained for just one task, no matter how minor, it's a service animal and no one is allowed to question its training.
People are allowed to question it. They're just not allowed to turn it into an open-ended interrogation session. You can legally ask if the animal is a service animal, and you can ask what tasks the animal is trained to perform.

("you" in this case would be a business owner or employee. as a private passenger one is not legally prohibited from being a big jerk and can ask pretty much whatever you want)
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Old Aug 9, 19, 2:01 pm
  #22  
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IIRC you can only ask if the animal has been trained to perform a specific task, not what the task is.....and you certainly cannot ask for medical information about the human (unless of course fitness to fly or to fly without an accompanying attendant is a potential issue, but that has nothing to do with the service animal or ESA).
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Old Aug 9, 19, 2:46 pm
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Originally Posted by WillBarrett_68 View Post
I'd love to see any actual evidence people have about the "pit bull breed" (which isn't even a thing) being inherently more dangerous. As far as I can see it's just a bunch of handwringing and confirmation bias.
Clearly law enforcement and the insurance industry are fabricating stats on the animals in a concerted effort to discriminate against them. That could be the only argument to sustain your denial of evidence.
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Old Aug 9, 19, 2:59 pm
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Seems like eventually, state governments will get involved. I could see a dog license with a "class", just like driver's licenses. Three classes: Regular, ESA, and Service, with increasing fees for each. You have to provide documentation for ESA and have to present your dog for a "license test" for the service animal.

Eventually the states will see the money making opportunity that goes along with lawmaking related to service and ESA animals. It would be a natural extension of their inherent proclivities to control and collect money. Would also take the onus off of businesses to assess the status of an animal as they could just look at the license and know.
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Old Aug 9, 19, 3:31 pm
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Your Honor... May I present Exhibit A

Originally Posted by WillBarrett_68 View Post
I'd love to see any actual evidence people have about the "pit bull breed" (which isn't even a thing) being inherently more dangerous. As far as I can see it's just a bunch of handwringing and confirmation bias.

EXHIBIT A

Delta passenger bitten by emotional support dog couldn’t escape, says attorney

https://www.ajc.com/travel/delta-pas...bVMv68XekCWUL/

Umm... it certainly wasn't a poodle or chihuahua.
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Old Aug 9, 19, 3:50 pm
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Originally Posted by xooz View Post
Seems like eventually, state governments will get involved. I could see a dog license with a "class", just like driver's licenses. Three classes: Regular, ESA, and Service, with increasing fees for each. You have to provide documentation for ESA and have to present your dog for a "license test" for the service animal.

Eventually the states will see the money making opportunity that goes along with lawmaking related to service and ESA animals. It would be a natural extension of their inherent proclivities to control and collect money. Would also take the onus off of businesses to assess the status of an animal as they could just look at the license and know.
I hope the unfortunate behavior of those who have taken undue advantage of these programs doesn't result in the imposition of new burdens on those most in need and whom these laws and rules were meant to help. For example, the visually impaired have a tough enough time navigating the world, finding employment, etc. without having to pay more for licenses for service dogs that make their lives easier and safer.
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Old Aug 9, 19, 4:20 pm
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Originally Posted by Rbt001 View Post

Umm... it certainly wasn't a poodle or chihuahua.
Nobody is disputing that "pit bulls" can bite people.
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Old Aug 9, 19, 4:21 pm
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Originally Posted by MSPeconomist View Post
IIRC you can only ask if the animal has been trained to perform a specific task, not what the task is.....and you certainly cannot ask for medical information about the human (unless of course fitness to fly or to fly without an accompanying attendant is a potential issue, but that has nothing to do with the service animal or ESA).
Well, you most certainly can ask what the tasks the animal is trained to perform are.

And as for interrogating the human about his/her medical status, well, I'm not sure what that has to do with the animal and it's a big goalpost shift.
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Old Aug 9, 19, 4:22 pm
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Originally Posted by Snuggs View Post


Clearly law enforcement and the insurance industry are fabricating stats on the animals in a concerted effort to discriminate against them. That could be the only argument to sustain your denial of evidence.
oh so you have the statistics? Let's see em.
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Old Aug 9, 19, 4:38 pm
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Rbt001 View Post
EXHIBIT A

Delta passenger bitten by emotional support dog couldn’t escape, says attorney

https://www.ajc.com/travel/delta-pas...bVMv68XekCWUL/

Umm... it certainly wasn't a poodle or chihuahua.
I love that the photo you selected has the watermark of the biggest highway billboard personal injury shop on it. Certainly not hand picked for shock value.

Originally Posted by WillBarrett_68 View Post
Nobody is disputing that "pit bulls" can bite people.
+1000

Similar/worse damage can be done by small or "friendly" breeds. I needed stitches and still have a scar on my hand from being attacked by a collie in my own yard. I have a friend who had ligaments or something torn in her lower leg and ankle and spent weeks in a boot/crutches after being bitten by a loose dachshund (yes, one of the tiny ones).

And my own dog spent two weeks in the hospital, came home with more stitches and staples than I could count, and had to have rubber tubes draining liquid from her haunches for a month after being attacked by....a poodle. This was at a daycare and the "instigating action" was my dog taking a drink from the communal water bowl that the poodle thought was "hers".

But I don't think that all collies, dachshunds, and poodles are evil animals that should be euthanized. I perhaps think that people who own dogs should socialize them properly, keep them on leash when out in public, and not falsify information on boarding/temperament documents.

All of these incidents have nothing to do with the breeds. They have everything to do with the individual animal and the training/socialization they've received before getting placed into an unusual situation, whether in the air or on the ground.
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