Delta exiting NRT, ending NRT-SIN and moving MNL flight to ICN
Aug 10, 2019, 8:36 pm
#271
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There isn't much upside to connections at HND for DL. Going into HND and referencing today's schedules:
I hope DL decides to space schedules out a bit. Even with HND's proximity to central Tokyo, it's not all that feasible to work for part of the day before going to the airport. HND-MSP/DTW and HND-PDX/SEA/LAX should be spaced out to facilitate various schedule needs. If DL could have SEA-HND depart at 19:00, I'd be pretty thrilled.
- ST flights to CGK, SHA and TSA for the day will already have left by the time DL's flights from LAX/MSP arrive (between 13:00 and 15:00).
- The VN HND-HAN leaves at 16:35, so that's a possible connection.
- There is a KE HND-GMP at 19:45, but the time savings over ICN will have been negated by the connection anyway.
- There's a 15:45 HND-CAN, but CZ is on its way out of SkyTeam.
- I assume virtually no one on DL will use HND to connect to CDG on AF (...although I've done this in the past in the other direction on two tickets because life schedules work out in strange ways
)
- VN HAN-HND might make the LAX flight, but not MSP
- KE GMP-HND, MU SHA-HND and CI TSA-HND would connect
- CZ CAN-HND barely works without any delays (something I wouldn't bet on with Mainland China)
- GA CGK-HND connects, but the connection time is 5+ hours
- And yes, AF CDG-HND would connect
I hope DL decides to space schedules out a bit. Even with HND's proximity to central Tokyo, it's not all that feasible to work for part of the day before going to the airport. HND-MSP/DTW and HND-PDX/SEA/LAX should be spaced out to facilitate various schedule needs. If DL could have SEA-HND depart at 19:00, I'd be pretty thrilled.
Aug 10, 2019, 8:43 pm
#272
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When you consider the connecting traffic into the gateway cities that go to Tokyo, there should, in theory, be enough demand - but as pointed out, time will tell. Delta seems to have really botched their SEA hub, it didn't seem to pan out nearly as well as expected and will never be a competitor to UA's SFO gateway - there just isn't enough local or inbound traffic to fill the flights with the volume and yield they wanted, while UA has a huge population catchment to pull from in the Bay Area, and short connections up from Southern California, Houston and the East Coast. You can fly UA to Asia from a variety of locations with a one-stop in SFO from a huge swath of the country while Delta seems to be trying be struggling to pull enough traffic into SEA to fill their flights.
For example, I can fly FLL-SFO-TPE or HKG on United, but I cannot fly FLL-SEA-HKG on Delta, I need to fly FLL-ATL/DTW-SEA and by then the Asian flights are already gone, aside from the inconvenience of an extra connection. So while you can certainly fly JFK/ATL/MSP/DTW/LAX/SNA/SLC-SEA and make an Asia connection, they are still having problems with that SEA hub since much of the midwest and east coast lacks nonstop flights into SEA. Maybe part of it is pricing, another part is UA's contracts with many of the larger companies that have the bulk of Asia traffic which keeps SFO busy, another part might be Delta's really abysmal frequent flyer program, or a combination of one or more of these factors.
For example, I can fly FLL-SFO-TPE or HKG on United, but I cannot fly FLL-SEA-HKG on Delta, I need to fly FLL-ATL/DTW-SEA and by then the Asian flights are already gone, aside from the inconvenience of an extra connection. So while you can certainly fly JFK/ATL/MSP/DTW/LAX/SNA/SLC-SEA and make an Asia connection, they are still having problems with that SEA hub since much of the midwest and east coast lacks nonstop flights into SEA. Maybe part of it is pricing, another part is UA's contracts with many of the larger companies that have the bulk of Asia traffic which keeps SFO busy, another part might be Delta's really abysmal frequent flyer program, or a combination of one or more of these factors.
And btw, DL is consistently more profitable than UA, year after year. In that regard, UA is the one that is failing.
Last edited by Mountain Explorer; Aug 11, 2019 at 6:35 pm
Aug 11, 2019, 3:23 am
#273
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Aug 11, 2019, 3:32 am
#274
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Thanks, kaffir76. And happy to "meet" another Singapore resident on here! I totally agree with you on the 767! When we first moved to Singapore, it was a 777 from SIN to NRT, and then the 747 from NRT to MSP. We watched as DL downgraded the SIN-NRT route to the 767 and thought that nobody whose company was paying for their tickets would stick with DL for long! (We buy our own tickets so unfortunately, we can't go with SQ!) Then DL moved the NRT-MSP flight to HND, so it meant we had to route through SEA, PDX, ATL, or DTW, which added another 6 hours or so to our trip. The switch to ICN now could be better for us, except that the best connection to the ICN to MSP flight only goes 4 days/ week. Otherwise, there is a 10 1/2 hour layover in ICN! UGH! Nobody wants that! So, if you need to travel on T-W-Sa, we're back to having 2 stopovers. Also DL doesn't fly the nonstop MSP-ICN every day either. We used to be *A, when we lived in a different location in the midwest, but I really dislike United, so I would prefer to stick with DL, but it's becoming increasingly difficult to do so.
Aug 11, 2019, 9:34 am
#275
Join Date: May 2009
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Also, is there an airport that just allows people through to their connecting international flight without going through security?
Aug 11, 2019, 10:16 am
#276
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I have a dog in this hunt because I hate having to correct people's misconceptions about transiting through China, having done so several times. I've done both sterile and non-sterile transit at PVG -- clearly, they have sterile transit where you don't have to go through passport control. Having your passport checked (and they don't stamp the thing) and going through an automated gate before going back to the departures security checkpoint is not passport control.
Also, is there an airport that just allows people through to their connecting international flight without going through security?
Also, is there an airport that just allows people through to their connecting international flight without going through security?
Sterile normally refers to security not passport control. You're the first person I've ever heard try and apply it to passport control and not security.
Aug 11, 2019, 12:49 pm
#277
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I have a dog in this hunt because I hate having to correct people's misconceptions about transiting through China, having done so several times. I've done both sterile and non-sterile transit at PVG -- clearly, they have sterile transit where you don't have to go through passport control. Having your passport checked (and they don't stamp the thing) and going through an automated gate before going back to the departures security checkpoint is not passport control.
Also, is there an airport that just allows people through to their connecting international flight without going through security?
Also, is there an airport that just allows people through to their connecting international flight without going through security?
If I am a Skyteam person, I would much rather make the connection in ICN, it's almost a no-brainer. If I am flexible with my carrier, then going on AA/JL or UA/NH via Tokyo is a much better option, or for SE Asia, direct to SIN on SQ and connect from there. There is almost no positive value proposition I can think of that makes a China connection a good idea, unless the fare is super duper dirt cheap and your schedule is very flexible - and if you do misconnect, be prepared to get a dismissive hand wave from disinterested Chinese employees of these airlines whose perception of service is virtually non-existent, and who has no motivation or interest in helping you. Been there, done that with clients - and never again.
Aug 11, 2019, 3:35 pm
#278
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You are conveniently leaving out the bigger risk of transiting through mainland China - leaving aside the risk that you could be detained randomly and indefinitely for political reasons, and Chinese airport security checks can be described as "strange" at best, let's just focus on the fact that delays stretching into multiple hours are commonplace, and I would never suggest anyone make a connection in China without at least 4hrs in between flights, and depending on the time of day, even that might be tight....or worse, your inbound arrives on time, and your outbound is delayed 3-4-5 hours. I have limited experience with Skyteam global lounge policy, but this could also mean spending an entire afternoon or evening staring at your shoes in a crowded airline terminal. No thanks.
If I am a Skyteam person, I would much rather make the connection in ICN, it's almost a no-brainer. If I am flexible with my carrier, then going on AA/JL or UA/NH via Tokyo is a much better option, or for SE Asia, direct to SIN on SQ and connect from there. There is almost no positive value proposition I can think of that makes a China connection a good idea, unless the fare is super duper dirt cheap and your schedule is very flexible - and if you do misconnect, be prepared to get a dismissive hand wave from disinterested Chinese employees of these airlines whose perception of service is virtually non-existent, and who has no motivation or interest in helping you. Been there, done that with clients - and never again.
If I am a Skyteam person, I would much rather make the connection in ICN, it's almost a no-brainer. If I am flexible with my carrier, then going on AA/JL or UA/NH via Tokyo is a much better option, or for SE Asia, direct to SIN on SQ and connect from there. There is almost no positive value proposition I can think of that makes a China connection a good idea, unless the fare is super duper dirt cheap and your schedule is very flexible - and if you do misconnect, be prepared to get a dismissive hand wave from disinterested Chinese employees of these airlines whose perception of service is virtually non-existent, and who has no motivation or interest in helping you. Been there, done that with clients - and never again.
CZ is by far the worst IME with delays. Great in air and CAN is an easy airport transit, but IRROPS are awful.
Aug 11, 2019, 5:54 pm
#279
Join Date: May 2005
Location: SIN
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I already have my tickets for Sept-Oct., and Dec.-Jan., but started looking at different options for Feb/March. Since I my son's family lives in KL, I wanted to see what options would be from there (and I could do a visit with him on both ends). I knew that Delta might route via either AMS or ICN but what really surprised me is that they gave the option to connect in Tokyo (NRT on the outbound and HND on the return) and to use NH as the partner! That surprised me since there was someone on here who wanted to change their SIN-NRT ticket to NH to connect to their NRT-PDX flight and were being told that it wasn't allowed. They are also still selling routes through NRT in mid March. I thought that Delta was pulling out of NRT by then? Or maybe it hasn't yet been decided what the date will be? The other interesting thing was that I could get a Delta One ticket going from KUL for considerably less! Stopping to see the grandkids and then a quick 45 min. flight on SQ sounds like a bonus!
Aug 11, 2019, 6:43 pm
#280
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My problem is that I do four trips/year between SIN and MSP, so one in February/March,one May- August, one in Dec-Jan, and one in October.
I already have my tickets for Sept-Oct., and Dec.-Jan., but started looking at different options for Feb/March. Since I my son's family lives in KL, I wanted to see what options would be from there (and I could do a visit with him on both ends). I knew that Delta might route via either AMS or ICN but what really surprised me is that they gave the option to connect in Tokyo (NRT on the outbound and HND on the return) and to use NH as the partner! That surprised me since there was someone on here who wanted to change their SIN-NRT ticket to NH to connect to their NRT-PDX flight and were being told that it wasn't allowed. They are also still selling routes through NRT in mid March. I thought that Delta was pulling out of NRT by then? Or maybe it hasn't yet been decided what the date will be? The other interesting thing was that I could get a Delta One ticket going from KUL for considerably less! Stopping to see the grandkids and then a quick 45 min. flight on SQ sounds like a bonus!
I already have my tickets for Sept-Oct., and Dec.-Jan., but started looking at different options for Feb/March. Since I my son's family lives in KL, I wanted to see what options would be from there (and I could do a visit with him on both ends). I knew that Delta might route via either AMS or ICN but what really surprised me is that they gave the option to connect in Tokyo (NRT on the outbound and HND on the return) and to use NH as the partner! That surprised me since there was someone on here who wanted to change their SIN-NRT ticket to NH to connect to their NRT-PDX flight and were being told that it wasn't allowed. They are also still selling routes through NRT in mid March. I thought that Delta was pulling out of NRT by then? Or maybe it hasn't yet been decided what the date will be? The other interesting thing was that I could get a Delta One ticket going from KUL for considerably less! Stopping to see the grandkids and then a quick 45 min. flight on SQ sounds like a bonus!
DL has had a long time fare that allowed NH on certain routes. You have to know how to find it, as it doesn't return on delta.com or with DL phone agents.
I thought I read March 20th or so was the last day for NRT. Don't hold me to it though.
PS I booked a number of KLs SFO-AMS-BKK J fares during their sale earlier this year. Pointing out that KL going the wrong way can sometimes be cheaper.
Aug 11, 2019, 7:28 pm
#281
Join Date: May 2005
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Tickets are always cheaper to US than ex-US. My next flight to SIN is actually the return portion, even though it's the start of my actual trip. My return home is actually the outbound of my next ticket.
DL has had a long time fare that allowed NH on certain routes. You have to know how to find it, as it doesn't return on delta.com or with DL phone agents.
I thought I read March 20th or so was the last day for NRT. Don't hold me to it though.
PS I booked a number of KLs SFO-AMS-BKK J fares during their sale earlier this year. Pointing out that KL going the wrong way can sometimes be cheaper.
DL has had a long time fare that allowed NH on certain routes. You have to know how to find it, as it doesn't return on delta.com or with DL phone agents.
I thought I read March 20th or so was the last day for NRT. Don't hold me to it though.
PS I booked a number of KLs SFO-AMS-BKK J fares during their sale earlier this year. Pointing out that KL going the wrong way can sometimes be cheaper.
Aug 11, 2019, 7:31 pm
#282
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Aug 11, 2019, 9:17 pm
#283
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Aug 11, 2019, 9:22 pm
#284
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The NH fares are on the delta.com website, not a third party booking site. Their fares going through AMS were not any cheaper than leaving from SIN for the dates that I checked, but the ones going through ICN and NRT/HND were significantly cheaper. I even found one option that was available for $4000 USD! I don't know why I hadn't checked going through KL before. When my son first moved there, we used to find better options for him to go via SIN, so he'd come down here and then fly DL to MSP, with a day or two stopover in Singapore on both ends of his trip.
Aug 11, 2019, 9:54 pm
#285
Join Date: Aug 2019
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What’s Next for April Pax?
I booked a DL flight for April 2020 via MKE-ATL-NRT-KUL and KUL-NRT-SEA-GEG with the NRT-KUL legs being taken by NH. I’m curious how long before the rebookings come out, and DL is continuing to sell NRT bound flights through June when I checked this evening. I’ve called DL and agents say they haven’t been given any authority to rebook tickets yet, and I know it’s 8 months out...but there’s got to be a plan in place, right?