Basic Economy for family
Jun 24, 2019, 11:12 am
#106
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It wasn't that long ago when kids as young as 7 or 8 would come home after school and play outside. For hours. Completely unsupervised. The fact that we now believe that 9-year olds - in a completely safe and monitored environment - can't sit away from their parents for a few hours is a frightening shift in perspective and one that is not grounded in a reasoned risk assessment.
A 9-year old is probably in 4th grade. In 4th grade, an average student is able to write simple essays, complete moderately advanced mathematics (long division, number theory, basic probability/algebra/geometry) and understand basic logic and able to apply critical thinking to basic open-ended problems. A 4th grader has more than enough mental capacity to understand "hey buddy, sit here for a few hours. Don't bother anyone. The bathroom is over there - if you need help, stop by my seat."
Aside from the worst case scenario stuff above, there are plenty of instances where a child can't do something/needs help with something. For a lot of kids, there is also a good chance that this is there first trip on a plane and may not understand how everything operates.
Jun 24, 2019, 11:23 am
#107
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None of those people is responsible for that child. Once again, let's look at Delta's UM policy. In that case, you pay $150 and the FA's are aware and presumably check in on/pay a little more attention to the UM. I don't believe the FA's would even necessarily know about a child not seated next to his parents.
You are way overestimating the average 4th grader. You are also assuming everything goes fine with the flight. In the event of an emergency, who is responsible for that child? Couldn't this potentially cause a safety issue if I am trying to get to my child while others are trying to evacuate the plane?
Aside from the worst case scenario stuff above, there are plenty of instances where a child can't do something/needs help with something. For a lot of kids, there is also a good chance that this is there first trip on a plane and may not understand how everything operates.
Jun 24, 2019, 11:25 am
#108
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Kids ride on school buses without adult supervision, unless you count 1 bus driver for 40-50 kids who is also having to concentrate on the road as “supervision”. But the kids certainly aren’t sitting next to adults and they may be on the bus close to an hour going to or from school. Kids go on field trips where they may be on a bus for several hours, again, not sitting right next to an adult. So how is being on a plane much different when you consider it from that perspective?
Jun 24, 2019, 12:01 pm
#109
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https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-...house-bill/636
In any case, as far as I can tell, the Secretary of Transportation did not establish any such policy, so one would assume that they either did not do the review, or did the review and did not find it appropriate to establish such a policy.
Jun 24, 2019, 12:12 pm
#110
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Beyond that one example, can a child even reach the personal item under the seat in front of him? Can he connect his tablet to use the IFE? What if the plane hits turbulence, and he becomes frightened? What if the oxygen masks drop and he needs assistance putting his on? Why should the person next person next to the child be expected to deal with any of this or switch to a seat that he may not want?
Jun 24, 2019, 12:18 pm
#111
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I meant protection of the random person that is now stuck sitting next to a random kid. I agree that there is a potential negative externality there. But my comment was mostly in jest.
Without any adult supervision? On a plane surrounded by adults? Including adults who's sole purpose is to ensure the safety of those on-board (flight attendants)? That's a weird way to describe "no adult supervision".
A 9 year old kid will absolutely be fine by themselves for a few hours in a plane. Maybe it we were talking about SIN-EWR I would be more likely to agree with you. But on a typical domestic transcon or shorter? A 9-year old kid will be absolutely fine sitting by themselves.
It wasn't that long ago when kids as young as 7 or 8 would come home after school and play outside. For hours. Completely unsupervised. The fact that we now believe that 9-year olds - in a completely safe and monitored environment - can't sit away from their parents for a few hours is a frightening shift in perspective and one that is not grounded in a reasoned risk assessment.
A 9-year old is probably in 4th grade. In 4th grade, an average student is able to write simple essays, complete moderately advanced mathematics (long division, number theory, basic probability/algebra/geometry) and understand basic logic and able to apply critical thinking to basic open-ended problems. A 4th grader has more than enough mental capacity to understand "hey buddy, sit here for a few hours. Don't bother anyone. The bathroom is over there - if you need help, stop by my seat."
This is a long-winded way of saying that no, Delta has no obligation to sit an average 9-year old next to his or her parents. A more reasonable cutoff for an average kid (grounded on developmental psychology tied to mental ability to understand and retain information and impulse control - not on some paranoid perception of leaving a kid alone in a safe environment for a few hours) is more like 5-6 years of age.
Without any adult supervision? On a plane surrounded by adults? Including adults who's sole purpose is to ensure the safety of those on-board (flight attendants)? That's a weird way to describe "no adult supervision".
A 9 year old kid will absolutely be fine by themselves for a few hours in a plane. Maybe it we were talking about SIN-EWR I would be more likely to agree with you. But on a typical domestic transcon or shorter? A 9-year old kid will be absolutely fine sitting by themselves.
It wasn't that long ago when kids as young as 7 or 8 would come home after school and play outside. For hours. Completely unsupervised. The fact that we now believe that 9-year olds - in a completely safe and monitored environment - can't sit away from their parents for a few hours is a frightening shift in perspective and one that is not grounded in a reasoned risk assessment.
A 9-year old is probably in 4th grade. In 4th grade, an average student is able to write simple essays, complete moderately advanced mathematics (long division, number theory, basic probability/algebra/geometry) and understand basic logic and able to apply critical thinking to basic open-ended problems. A 4th grader has more than enough mental capacity to understand "hey buddy, sit here for a few hours. Don't bother anyone. The bathroom is over there - if you need help, stop by my seat."
This is a long-winded way of saying that no, Delta has no obligation to sit an average 9-year old next to his or her parents. A more reasonable cutoff for an average kid (grounded on developmental psychology tied to mental ability to understand and retain information and impulse control - not on some paranoid perception of leaving a kid alone in a safe environment for a few hours) is more like 5-6 years of age.
Jun 24, 2019, 3:13 pm
#112
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I also don't buy BE seats and never would. However, I'm thinking about the family of five who takes the once a year trip to see grandma. Buying main cabin seats instead of BE for five people could easily be a $300-$400 difference, or more. If you are a family who is strapped for cash, as so many American families are, that's a pretty crappy choice that the airline has just presented you with, especially if your kids are really young.
Less expensive options which don't have seating issues include driving a car and the bus. Greyhound still goes to more cities in the US than served by air.
Last edited by puddinhead; Jun 24, 2019 at 3:41 pm
Jun 24, 2019, 3:14 pm
#113
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I aggree with your assessment of a 9 year olds capabilities. We can argue about the appropriate cut off age, but below some age DL does have a responsibility to ensure a child is seated with at least one parent. Both from a safety perspective ( who is going to help evacuate or put on oxygen mask), and to meet the reasonable expectation of customer service from passengers seated next to the unaccompanied child. If I paid for a window seat and an unaccompanied 2 year old was plopped down next to me, my in flight experience would be negatively effected in a major way. I think we have a right to expect an airline not do that to us.
I think we have a right to expect parents to be responsible to make sure that they are sitting next to their children if those children need help. If that means that the aprents must select a more expensive ticket or pay for advanced seat assignments, that is part of the responsibility of parenthood.
Maybe someone can survive a flight in a middle seat without a beverage, but if they have paid for the aisle/window seat that does come with the beverage (either by paying more for the ticket or by having attained the elite FF status to be entitled to such perks), then the person should ride in the better aseat and receive the additional perks. Period.....and it's not sufficient for the airline to refund the price difference or seat reesevation fee as we know that the customer chose to pay/fly more to receive the additional privileges.
Maybe someone can survive a flight in a middle seat without a beverage, but if they have paid for the aisle/window seat that does come with the beverage (either by paying more for the ticket or by having attained the elite FF status to be entitled to such perks), then the person should ride in the better aseat and receive the additional perks. Period.....and it's not sufficient for the airline to refund the price difference or seat reesevation fee as we know that the customer chose to pay/fly more to receive the additional privileges.
Jun 24, 2019, 5:30 pm
#114
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And here is a timely thread that just sums this whole thing up perfectly. Person buys BE for their family of 4, one kid is 4, one is 18 mos in it’s own seat with car seat, knowing full well they cannot choose seats in advance. Brags about saving $150. As we all know, the car seat must be in a window so some poor sap is going to be forced out of his window seat for this family. And likely someone else for the 4 year old as well. And it will work so why should they pay the extra $150 next time either since they know they can force someone to move by playing the ‘but, but, but, what about the children?’ card. 
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/31235842-post562.html
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/31235842-post562.html
Last edited by Finkface; Jun 24, 2019 at 5:44 pm Reason: Fixed link
Jun 24, 2019, 5:37 pm
#115
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Problem is that's not how you used it. Theres nothing called a cabin class. You have fare class and you have cabins. You tried to equate BE and Y to being different cabins. They're not, that was my point.
Jun 24, 2019, 6:54 pm
#116
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And here is a timely thread that just sums this whole thing up perfectly. Person buys BE for their family of 4, one kid is 4, one is 18 mos in it’s own seat with car seat, knowing full well they cannot choose seats in advance. Brags about saving $150. As we all know, the car seat must be in a window so some poor sap is going to be forced out of his window seat for this family. And likely someone else for the 4 year old as well. And it will work so why should they pay the extra $150 next time either since they know they can force someone to move by playing the ‘but, but, but, what about the children?’ card.
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/31235842-post562.html
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/31235842-post562.html
“When I booked I assumed it was a no brainer that kids that young would automatically be seated my a parent, but I am reading stories online of 2 year olds being seated away from either parent, which seems bizarre to me.”
How most other people think. Of course, the airline could solve this problem if it wanted.
Jun 24, 2019, 7:31 pm
#117
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How FlyerTalk thinks.
“When I booked I assumed it was a no brainer that kids that young would automatically be seated my a parent, but I am reading stories online of 2 year olds being seated away from either parent, which seems bizarre to me.”
How most other people think. Of course, the airline could solve this problem if it wanted.
Jun 24, 2019, 7:46 pm
#118
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How FlyerTalk thinks.
“When I booked I assumed it was a no brainer that kids that young would automatically be seated my a parent, but I am reading stories online of 2 year olds being seated away from either parent, which seems bizarre to me.”
How most other people think. Of course, the airline could solve this problem if it wanted.
Jun 24, 2019, 8:34 pm
#119
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Except this would put Delta at a competitive disadvantage because other airlines wouldn’t match. Not to mention you are really going to piss people off when you show them a lower price and then not allow them to book it.
Jun 25, 2019, 7:14 am
#120
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I disagree. Of course issues can arise. But at least 9 out of 10 times, a leisure trip is not going to change.
Assume a $300 basic economy ticket and a $370 main cabin ticket (a very common ratio). For your average BE buyer, this is an expensive ticket. $300 BE is more than enough to fly NYC - West Coast round trip if you're flexible on times a bit. You can call this "dirt cheap", but a $300 ticket is not cheap for the average person, especially with a family in tow. For a family of five, that is more than the median mortgage payment in the US ($1492).
A change is $200. So.. that means that the Basic Economy ticket retains $100 of value. In order for the flexibility to really be material, this hypothetical leisure traveler would need to change their ticket 2 out of every 3 trips to make this a prudent decision. Do you really think that Ma and Pa Kettle are changing their tickets that much? Even as a business traveler with a lot of last minute changes I don't change tickets that much.
For most people, the seat selection is what they are giving up. And maybe boarding order (having to check their carry-on).
Assume a $300 basic economy ticket and a $370 main cabin ticket (a very common ratio). For your average BE buyer, this is an expensive ticket. $300 BE is more than enough to fly NYC - West Coast round trip if you're flexible on times a bit. You can call this "dirt cheap", but a $300 ticket is not cheap for the average person, especially with a family in tow. For a family of five, that is more than the median mortgage payment in the US ($1492).
A change is $200. So.. that means that the Basic Economy ticket retains $100 of value. In order for the flexibility to really be material, this hypothetical leisure traveler would need to change their ticket 2 out of every 3 trips to make this a prudent decision. Do you really think that Ma and Pa Kettle are changing their tickets that much? Even as a business traveler with a lot of last minute changes I don't change tickets that much.
For most people, the seat selection is what they are giving up. And maybe boarding order (having to check their carry-on).
So...it wouldn't retain any value...would it? Did I miss something?