just waiting for late plane
May 22, 2019, 1:48 pm
#46
Join Date: Sep 2011
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If it's an hour drive and an hour flight to the airport, a better strategy might be to give the driver the flight number and tell him to leave once it's confirmed the plane is actually in the air by checking the Delta website. I never pick someone up at the airport without checking the expected arrival time of their flight AFTER it's airborne.
May 22, 2019, 3:01 pm
#47
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If it's an hour drive and an hour flight to the airport, a better strategy might be to give the driver the flight number and tell him to leave once it's confirmed the plane is actually in the air by checking the Delta website. I never pick someone up at the airport without checking the expected arrival time of their flight AFTER it's airborne.
May 22, 2019, 3:03 pm
#48
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I used to be an Airport Manager at a small hub for another airline. There are so many considerations when deciding if to hold a plane.
- Aircraft scheduling. What is that aircraft doing next? Will it cause further delays downline.
- Crew scheduling. Will it affect the crews next flight or rest period. Will it push crew out of hours?
- ATC slots. Will the aircraft miss a slot if delayed? How ling until the next slot?
- Inbound Connecting Customers. Are there sufficient seats to rebook the affected customers on other flights? What is the wait for those new flights?
- Outbound Connecting Customers. Will holding this aircraft for the inbound customers subsequently cause other customers to miss an onward connection?
- Cost. What is the cost associated with departing without those customers? Is there sufficient hotel availability?
- Customer Experience. Is the delay likely to result in a negative customer experience for remaining customers? Can this be mitigated?
May 22, 2019, 3:58 pm
#49
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,394
Exactly, planes don't just go from A to B back to A back to B. They go A to B to C to A to D to B to E to A, etc. And the crews sometimes don't follow that particular aircraft. And planes only have so many cycles they can go before certain maintenance. So if the option is to delay ~100 people by less than an hour and in exchange 25 people make the connection AND there is no further operational or customer impact, airlines are going to do that 10 times out of 10.
May 22, 2019, 5:25 pm
#50
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BACK to the original post I commented on....it would NOT take Delta days to clear a backlog of 25 missed connections to JAC from SLC.
May 22, 2019, 5:32 pm
#51
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Exactly, planes don't just go from A to B back to A back to B. They go A to B to C to A to D to B to E to A, etc. And the crews sometimes don't follow that particular aircraft. And planes only have so many cycles they can go before certain maintenance. So if the option is to delay ~100 people by less than an hour and in exchange 25 people make the connection AND there is no further operational or customer impact, airlines are going to do that 10 times out of 10.
Last edited by ryandc99; May 22, 2019 at 8:17 pm Reason: Removed snarky commentary, FT Rule 12
May 22, 2019, 5:45 pm
#52
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I'm not an authority on crew scheduling, but I think pilots/FAs who have Reserve lines are basically "on-call" (meaning few if any are sitting around at the airport in anticipation of being needed) ... unless there's a terminating crew that would still be legal after a JAC turn, they might need a couple hours to round up enough people to staff the flights
May 22, 2019, 6:35 pm
#53
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The only possible option if we want to humor the notion is an A320. Yes, it is doable (United runs a A320 on a route to Denver* - almost certainly payload restricted), but there are still performance considerations. They may be able to do it, but it is not a standard routing option and a dispatcher would certainly have to look at it closely. Most operational upgauging happens on high density routes that have a variety of different equipment serviced (including the upgauged size). Bringing in brand new equipment that does not usually go to the site is asking for trouble (even if it is true that the A320 and A319 should be basically interchangeable from an airport ops perspective).
JAC is at 6450'. If it was at sea level, that would be equivalent to a bit more than a 5000 foot runway - 700 feet shorter than SNA which can barely do A320 ops itself.
*edit: Of note - United's A320s engines are rated at 27K thrust. Delta's A320s are the 23.5K flavor - same as their A319s.
Last edited by ethernal; May 22, 2019 at 7:22 pm
May 22, 2019, 9:58 pm
#55
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,394
Nobody is saying what DL did wasn’t the right thing. I replied to post claiming it would take DL days to rebook 25 passengers on SLC-JAC and that’s just nonsense. DL has the ability to upgauge and/or add an extra sector with SLC being a major hub. This isn’t some once daily outstation we’re talking about.
I tried to find numbers on how many spare planes Delta has but I can't find any specific numbers but the general consensus is that it's way less than we think. Like 15-20 total spares. Just look at AA having to cancel 115 flights per DAY because they had to ground all 24 MAX planes. If they had a bunch of spares it wouldn't be much of an issue. But an A320 has a list price of over $100M. List price on one 359 is $317M. (I understand airlines get big discounts, but even a 50% discount takes only 5 A320 and 3 A350 to be over $1B) Having literal billions of dollars in capital sitting around for just in case doesn't seem like the wisest use of resources, even if it's occasionally highly inconvenient for us travelers.
May 23, 2019, 1:54 am
#56
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,866
Back around 2008 the SFO-ATL flight was late arriving in SFO and the SFO agents were in no rush to get the plane out. When we arrived in ATL, 7 of us rushed to the ATL-PBI gate and they would not let us on the plane, even though it was prior to the departure time. We watched our luggage being loaded on to the plane. At least when we arrived at PBI we did not have to wait for luggage because they were already in the Delta baggage office. US Air, Continental & United have also pulled the same stunt of shutting the door prior to departure time even though it was their fault for the delay. Often the luggage is already in the baggage office.
May 23, 2019, 10:02 am
#57
Join Date: Jun 2013
Programs: DL Diamond, UA Premier Gold
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Sounds like DL did the right thing. Currently, the last flight of the night arrives in JAC at 9:21 pm. The next flight is not for almost 15 hours, arriving at 12:06 pm. Delta saved those 25 people from a very long delay or 5 hour drive in the dark. Your ride had to wait for an hour in a beautiful National Park!
May 23, 2019, 11:16 am
#58
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,883
It wouldn't take days because they won't be able to accommodate everyone the next day and several people will get off-lined to another carrier or refunded. But it's not just like you can waive an up-gauge wand and magically have a bigger plane the next day. In some situations that might be possible, but there are only so many spares, I have no idea how many but I'd be surprised if there was more than 2 spares in SLC at any one time. And if I'm the airline I'm not up-gauging to accommodate 25 people to a non-peak season leisure destination. I'm holding on to it in case one of my flights to LAX or JFK takes a mechanical delay or gets stuck in weather somewhere else.
I tried to find numbers on how many spare planes Delta has but I can't find any specific numbers but the general consensus is that it's way less than we think. Like 15-20 total spares. Just look at AA having to cancel 115 flights per DAY because they had to ground all 24 MAX planes. If they had a bunch of spares it wouldn't be much of an issue. But an A320 has a list price of over $100M. List price on one 359 is $317M. (I understand airlines get big discounts, but even a 50% discount takes only 5 A320 and 3 A350 to be over $1B) Having literal billions of dollars in capital sitting around for just in case doesn't seem like the wisest use of resources, even if it's occasionally highly inconvenient for us travelers.
I tried to find numbers on how many spare planes Delta has but I can't find any specific numbers but the general consensus is that it's way less than we think. Like 15-20 total spares. Just look at AA having to cancel 115 flights per DAY because they had to ground all 24 MAX planes. If they had a bunch of spares it wouldn't be much of an issue. But an A320 has a list price of over $100M. List price on one 359 is $317M. (I understand airlines get big discounts, but even a 50% discount takes only 5 A320 and 3 A350 to be over $1B) Having literal billions of dollars in capital sitting around for just in case doesn't seem like the wisest use of resources, even if it's occasionally highly inconvenient for us travelers.
May 23, 2019, 12:00 pm
#59
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,394
I would bet a lot of this depends on seasonality too. Off peak, there are probably a lot of planes sitting around idle. Memorial day weekend, I am sure every plane they have available is scheduled for service. This weekend, it might even be less than 15-20 sitting around.
May 23, 2019, 12:06 pm
#60
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,883
I think in an absolute sense this is true that DL would have more planes available for spares in the off peak season, BUT I think that is when they schedule a lot of planes in for maintenance/overhaul. Like DL is going to add PE to more wide-bodies over the winter so they are ready for peak summer season. So there likely aren't many more spares around on average throughout the year. Now specific days like Thanksgiving Day when not many are traveling and the schedule is reduced or Saturdays in general will have more spare options. But I bet seasonally there isn't much variance in the number of available spares.
