Feb 21, 2019, 2:36 pm
Last edit by: mnbp
Here are the applications for flight slots at HND (12 slots available to US carriers):
UA (six slots requested)
HND - EWR/ORD/IAD/LAX/IAH/GUM
Application of United Airlines (508 pages)
Answer of United Airlines (154 pages) "United's proposal will make the best use of scarce Haneda slots and provide the greatest public benefits, and No other carrier has demonstrated the benefits of its proposals more than United"
Consolidated reply of United Airlines (148 pages) "Our proposal is best, and the other guys misrepresented the facts."
HA (three slots requested)
HND - HNL (3x daily)
Application of Hawaiian Airlines (118 pages)
Answer of Hawaiian Airlines (111 pages) "Why HA is best, here's what's wrong with DL's request, here's what's wrong with UA's request, and here's what's wrong with AA's request"
Consolidated Reply of Hawaiian Airlines (33 pages) "Our proposal is best, and here's what's wrong with DL, UA and AA's proposals"
AA (four slots requested)
HND - DFW/LAX/DFW/LAS (DFW is AA's first and third preference)
Application of American Airlines (135 pages)
Answer of American Airlines (106 pages) "Only AA adds competition, DL squanders scarce resources, and don't reward UA further"
Consolidated Reply of American Airlines (111 pages) "Here's why DFW, LAX and LAS should be selected, and UA's baseless attacks on AA distract from UA's poor proposal"
DL (six slots requested)
HND - SEA/DTW/ATL/PDX/HNL/HNL (HNL Is DL's fifth and sixth preference)
Application of Delta Air Lines (199 pages)
Answer of Delta Air Lines (90 pages) "DL's proposal maximizes public benefits, DL's proposal should be granted in full before UA, AA, and HA are considered, and DL deserves the slot times it has requested"
Reply of Delta Air Lines (75 pages) "Answers from UA, AA and HA underscore why DL's proposal should be granted in full, and B6's answer is irrelevant to this proceeding"
And the odd filing:
Answer of Jetblue Airways Corporation (6 pages) "If it is important for DOT to grant DL's application for slots at HND, it is equally important to allow JetBlue to enter LHR and AMS"
UA (six slots requested)
HND - EWR/ORD/IAD/LAX/IAH/GUM
Application of United Airlines (508 pages)
Answer of United Airlines (154 pages) "United's proposal will make the best use of scarce Haneda slots and provide the greatest public benefits, and No other carrier has demonstrated the benefits of its proposals more than United"
Consolidated reply of United Airlines (148 pages) "Our proposal is best, and the other guys misrepresented the facts."
HA (three slots requested)
HND - HNL (3x daily)
Application of Hawaiian Airlines (118 pages)
Answer of Hawaiian Airlines (111 pages) "Why HA is best, here's what's wrong with DL's request, here's what's wrong with UA's request, and here's what's wrong with AA's request"
Consolidated Reply of Hawaiian Airlines (33 pages) "Our proposal is best, and here's what's wrong with DL, UA and AA's proposals"
AA (four slots requested)
HND - DFW/LAX/DFW/LAS (DFW is AA's first and third preference)
Application of American Airlines (135 pages)
Answer of American Airlines (106 pages) "Only AA adds competition, DL squanders scarce resources, and don't reward UA further"
Consolidated Reply of American Airlines (111 pages) "Here's why DFW, LAX and LAS should be selected, and UA's baseless attacks on AA distract from UA's poor proposal"
DL (six slots requested)
HND - SEA/DTW/ATL/PDX/HNL/HNL (HNL Is DL's fifth and sixth preference)
Application of Delta Air Lines (199 pages)
Answer of Delta Air Lines (90 pages) "DL's proposal maximizes public benefits, DL's proposal should be granted in full before UA, AA, and HA are considered, and DL deserves the slot times it has requested"
Reply of Delta Air Lines (75 pages) "Answers from UA, AA and HA underscore why DL's proposal should be granted in full, and B6's answer is irrelevant to this proceeding"
And the odd filing:
Answer of Jetblue Airways Corporation (6 pages) "If it is important for DOT to grant DL's application for slots at HND, it is equally important to allow JetBlue to enter LHR and AMS"
DOT starts new proceeding for added HND slots
Feb 24, 2019, 8:09 pm
#91
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,601
SIN would have to be flown by a 789 and the 350 is quite comparable. Where a 787 would benefit delta, IMO, is on flights that they could use the -8. Re-entering HKG, MSP-HND, a possible SLC-ICN route, etc.
Feb 24, 2019, 9:14 pm
#92
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...oops, wrong forum
Feb 25, 2019, 2:25 am
#93
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basically no. Route authorities aren't the problem, HND slots are. US slots have the restriction of only being to US markets.
this. If Delta metal continues to SIN, it will be via Soul. That is highly unlikely though.
330 will do this just fine. Hell a 767 would do it just fine.
SIN would have to be flown by a 789 and the 350 is quite comparable. Where a 787 would benefit delta, IMO, is on flights that they could use the -8. Re-entering HKG, MSP-HND, a possible SLC-ICN route, etc.
this. If Delta metal continues to SIN, it will be via Soul. That is highly unlikely though.
330 will do this just fine. Hell a 767 would do it just fine.
SIN would have to be flown by a 789 and the 350 is quite comparable. Where a 787 would benefit delta, IMO, is on flights that they could use the -8. Re-entering HKG, MSP-HND, a possible SLC-ICN route, etc.
Feb 25, 2019, 3:44 am
#94
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Yes yes, we know your obsession with Guam. If you were DL, ATL operations would move to Guam and all flights would connect thru there. It's over. Move on already
Feb 25, 2019, 6:25 am
#95
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Tokyo
Programs: DL Diamond, ANA Platinum
Posts: 1,532
It would be interesting to see DL try to hang on to SIN and/or MNL via KIX and NGO.
I've ridden HND-MSP and HND-LAX many times over the last two years. I've observed that for HND-MSP, a fairly significant number of them seem to connect from the PR MNL-HND flight. I'm sure these itineraries are frequently assembled by Philippine travel agents and that DL tolerates such an arrangement because they need the feed to support the MSP flight given that AA had backup authority for the route. I also imagine the arrangement benefitted from DL's canceling of NGO-MNL around the same time.
If NRT-MNL goes away, there might just be enough sales activity from MNL to justify DL's continued presence there via NGO. But that doesn't take into account the impending MSP-ICN flight or the rest of DL's upcoming HND slot allocation.
KIX-SIN would be a semi-covert way to serve the "SEA-SIN" market and there is very little competition on it (all SQ, essentially). Such a route could build mindshare before DL tries the route for real in the future.
I've ridden HND-MSP and HND-LAX many times over the last two years. I've observed that for HND-MSP, a fairly significant number of them seem to connect from the PR MNL-HND flight. I'm sure these itineraries are frequently assembled by Philippine travel agents and that DL tolerates such an arrangement because they need the feed to support the MSP flight given that AA had backup authority for the route. I also imagine the arrangement benefitted from DL's canceling of NGO-MNL around the same time.
If NRT-MNL goes away, there might just be enough sales activity from MNL to justify DL's continued presence there via NGO. But that doesn't take into account the impending MSP-ICN flight or the rest of DL's upcoming HND slot allocation.
KIX-SIN would be a semi-covert way to serve the "SEA-SIN" market and there is very little competition on it (all SQ, essentially). Such a route could build mindshare before DL tries the route for real in the future.
Feb 25, 2019, 7:18 am
#96
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Sorry - DL has already announced the end of the renewed SEA-KIX service which starts 4/1/19. Last flight date is 10/25/19.
Feb 25, 2019, 8:03 am
#97
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Feb 25, 2019, 11:33 am
#98
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No, HND's international slots are all heavily controlled by the Japanese government. There are no slots available to US carriers that could be used to serve SIN/MNL from Haneda.
Feb 26, 2019, 2:19 am
#99
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I understand they slot control HND. I also understand that routes from the US to/from HND are even more restricted for US carriers. However routes from SIN wouldn't be a route to/from the US. It possibly falls under whatever agreement Singapore and Japan have, not the US and Japan. Do you know that it is the US/JAPAN agreement that governs SIN flights, or does it fall under whatever agreement Singapore and Japan have.
Feb 26, 2019, 9:35 am
#100
Join Date: Oct 2009
Programs: Marriott, IHG, Delta, United
Posts: 575
Put it this way....
Why would HND, which is controlled by Japanese authorities, go out of their way to accommodate DL on HND-MNL/SIN when they don’t have to? Doing so would be allowing a foreign airline to compete and take profits away from the Japanese carriers.
Obviously by treaty they have to allow it elsewhere, but the slot restriction gives Japan a defacto veto of DL doing 5th Freedoms from HND. Why would Japan want to give that up?
Why would HND, which is controlled by Japanese authorities, go out of their way to accommodate DL on HND-MNL/SIN when they don’t have to? Doing so would be allowing a foreign airline to compete and take profits away from the Japanese carriers.
Obviously by treaty they have to allow it elsewhere, but the slot restriction gives Japan a defacto veto of DL doing 5th Freedoms from HND. Why would Japan want to give that up?
Feb 26, 2019, 1:21 pm
#101
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I understand they slot control HND. I also understand that routes from the US to/from HND are even more restricted for US carriers. However routes from SIN wouldn't be a route to/from the US. It possibly falls under whatever agreement Singapore and Japan have, not the US and Japan. Do you know that it is the US/JAPAN agreement that governs SIN flights, or does it fall under whatever agreement Singapore and Japan have.
From an air treaty perspective, I don't think there would be any impediment to Delta serving HND-SIN and HND-MNL — it's all about the slot restrictions.
Feb 27, 2019, 8:35 pm
#102
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,601
I didn't do a good job explain but no because of the bold. Basically US carriers are restricted to US markets. The Japanese government wont give the US DOT slots to give to Delta (or anyone else) to operate something like HND-SIN.
Feb 27, 2019, 8:41 pm
#103
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,601
I understand they slot control HND. I also understand that routes from the US to/from HND are even more restricted for US carriers. However routes from SIN wouldn't be a route to/from the US. It possibly falls under whatever agreement Singapore and Japan have, not the US and Japan. Do you know that it is the US/JAPAN agreement that governs SIN flights, or does it fall under whatever agreement Singapore and Japan have.
I can't say for sure on Singapore but generally the HND slot agreements are for slots only to go between the two countries airlines, if that makes sense.
HND has turned into one of the weirdest things I have seen. Its true protectionism with counties like the US being completely fine with it and putting its own airlines and customers at a disadvantage.
Feb 27, 2019, 8:55 pm
#104
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I haven't actually been to HND, but I assume that it cannot handle all the flight traffic for Tokyo. So if demand exceeds supply, there must be some authority that decides who gets in
Feb 27, 2019, 10:33 pm
#105
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 16
Years ago, before NRT was made, there was a huge protest against HND expanding. When t was announced that NRT would be made, there was a huge protest and there are still land owners who refuse to give up their land, keeping the airport from making another runway. HND is at capacity due to the slot restrictions the airport is at due to the agreement with the city and the fisherman’s union. Basically the government and the US military base nearby controls the airport airspace