Last edit by: mnbp
Here are the applications for flight slots at HND (12 slots available to US carriers):
UA (six slots requested)
HND - EWR/ORD/IAD/LAX/IAH/GUM
Application of United Airlines (508 pages)
Answer of United Airlines (154 pages) "United's proposal will make the best use of scarce Haneda slots and provide the greatest public benefits, and No other carrier has demonstrated the benefits of its proposals more than United"
Consolidated reply of United Airlines (148 pages) "Our proposal is best, and the other guys misrepresented the facts."
HA (three slots requested)
HND - HNL (3x daily)
Application of Hawaiian Airlines (118 pages)
Answer of Hawaiian Airlines (111 pages) "Why HA is best, here's what's wrong with DL's request, here's what's wrong with UA's request, and here's what's wrong with AA's request"
Consolidated Reply of Hawaiian Airlines (33 pages) "Our proposal is best, and here's what's wrong with DL, UA and AA's proposals"
AA (four slots requested)
HND - DFW/LAX/DFW/LAS (DFW is AA's first and third preference)
Application of American Airlines (135 pages)
Answer of American Airlines (106 pages) "Only AA adds competition, DL squanders scarce resources, and don't reward UA further"
Consolidated Reply of American Airlines (111 pages) "Here's why DFW, LAX and LAS should be selected, and UA's baseless attacks on AA distract from UA's poor proposal"
DL (six slots requested)
HND - SEA/DTW/ATL/PDX/HNL/HNL (HNL Is DL's fifth and sixth preference)
Application of Delta Air Lines (199 pages)
Answer of Delta Air Lines (90 pages) "DL's proposal maximizes public benefits, DL's proposal should be granted in full before UA, AA, and HA are considered, and DL deserves the slot times it has requested"
Reply of Delta Air Lines (75 pages) "Answers from UA, AA and HA underscore why DL's proposal should be granted in full, and B6's answer is irrelevant to this proceeding"
And the odd filing:
Answer of Jetblue Airways Corporation (6 pages) "If it is important for DOT to grant DL's application for slots at HND, it is equally important to allow JetBlue to enter LHR and AMS"
UA (six slots requested)
HND - EWR/ORD/IAD/LAX/IAH/GUM
Application of United Airlines (508 pages)
Answer of United Airlines (154 pages) "United's proposal will make the best use of scarce Haneda slots and provide the greatest public benefits, and No other carrier has demonstrated the benefits of its proposals more than United"
Consolidated reply of United Airlines (148 pages) "Our proposal is best, and the other guys misrepresented the facts."
HA (three slots requested)
HND - HNL (3x daily)
Application of Hawaiian Airlines (118 pages)
Answer of Hawaiian Airlines (111 pages) "Why HA is best, here's what's wrong with DL's request, here's what's wrong with UA's request, and here's what's wrong with AA's request"
Consolidated Reply of Hawaiian Airlines (33 pages) "Our proposal is best, and here's what's wrong with DL, UA and AA's proposals"
AA (four slots requested)
HND - DFW/LAX/DFW/LAS (DFW is AA's first and third preference)
Application of American Airlines (135 pages)
Answer of American Airlines (106 pages) "Only AA adds competition, DL squanders scarce resources, and don't reward UA further"
Consolidated Reply of American Airlines (111 pages) "Here's why DFW, LAX and LAS should be selected, and UA's baseless attacks on AA distract from UA's poor proposal"
DL (six slots requested)
HND - SEA/DTW/ATL/PDX/HNL/HNL (HNL Is DL's fifth and sixth preference)
Application of Delta Air Lines (199 pages)
Answer of Delta Air Lines (90 pages) "DL's proposal maximizes public benefits, DL's proposal should be granted in full before UA, AA, and HA are considered, and DL deserves the slot times it has requested"
Reply of Delta Air Lines (75 pages) "Answers from UA, AA and HA underscore why DL's proposal should be granted in full, and B6's answer is irrelevant to this proceeding"
And the odd filing:
Answer of Jetblue Airways Corporation (6 pages) "If it is important for DOT to grant DL's application for slots at HND, it is equally important to allow JetBlue to enter LHR and AMS"
DOT starts new proceeding for added HND slots
#62
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: HNL
Programs: DL PM/1MM, BW DE (lifetime), HH DE, Marriott PE (lifetime), National Emerald Executive
Posts: 7,205
In the DOT filing DL had not a single comment about why it now wants to add a bit more (still nothing close to how much it was just a few years ago) capacity after having kept cutting so hard for so long. I mean that is by far the largest US-Japan market, and I am surprised DL did only two slots (not 3) and as last two, vs. as #1 and #3 or #2 and #4 , something like that, as would have been more logical given the market demands. But DL's past history of continually cutting capacity won't work in its favor.
#63
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 16
With the recent events of watching MNL and SIN drop from 744/777 down to the 763 and the dropping of routes exNRT such as GUM/BKK/ICN/HKG/HNL (from 3 to 1) I really can't imagine DL keeping those routes in the event DL gets awarded 4 slots at HND. HNL can be captured with the JV with KE nonstop HNL-NRT and SIN could just as easily be flown as a connection with KE via ICN.
DL only has four NRT flights they would want shifted to HND exUSA with ATL/SEA/PDX/DTW. They settle for four and shift all flying to HND, that would be a very plausible idea that it could mean the end for NRT flying.
DL only has four NRT flights they would want shifted to HND exUSA with ATL/SEA/PDX/DTW. They settle for four and shift all flying to HND, that would be a very plausible idea that it could mean the end for NRT flying.
#64
Join Date: Jul 2004
Programs: DL; AA; UA; CO; LHLX; NZ; QR; EK; BA
Posts: 7,408
Delta Needs Two Haneda Slots for Honolulu service to provide meaningful competition in the Top US-Tokyo Demand Market
- United/ANA and prospective Hawaiian/JAL JVs would operate effective duopoly in Hawaii, Delta can provide meaningful competition with two Honolulu - Haneda slot awards
Diagram of Potential HNL-HND Slot Allocation:
ANA/UA JV: 2 total (1 from 2016 day-time allocation, and 1 from 2020 potential day-time allocation)
JL/HA ATI pending approval: 4 total (1 from 2016 day-time allocation; 1 Night-time; 2 from 2020 potential day-time allocation)
Delta: 2 total (2 from potential 2020 daytime allocation)
#65
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 16
DL will likely continue to receive more pairs than either one as the DOT has always considered these awards in the context of the existing JVs that AA and UA have with JL and NH respectively. Given that the US carriers are getting 12 slot pairs, this means that the Japanese side is going to get 12 as well for new US-Japan daytime flights and you can bet that DL will argue (and likely be somewhat successful at it) that the distribution needs to consider that AA and UA will benefit from those 12 as well.
I agree with the above scenario. Given that DL got 50% of the slots the last round, I don't see why they wouldn't apply for at least 6 of the 12 and argue that they need those to compete effectively with the two JVs. Also, these slots are for US-Japan nonstops only and not for any third party countries, so even if they wanted to, they couldn't apply for HND-SIN/MNL as part of the 12 anyway, which means MNL and SIN from TYO will be toast. So in applying for the 12 they can essentially move all of the other NRT-US flights over, and even apply for a new one - JFK.
I agree with the above scenario. Given that DL got 50% of the slots the last round, I don't see why they wouldn't apply for at least 6 of the 12 and argue that they need those to compete effectively with the two JVs. Also, these slots are for US-Japan nonstops only and not for any third party countries, so even if they wanted to, they couldn't apply for HND-SIN/MNL as part of the 12 anyway, which means MNL and SIN from TYO will be toast. So in applying for the 12 they can essentially move all of the other NRT-US flights over, and even apply for a new one - JFK.
#66
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 16
Uh, yes it does - page 10 of the application document - in big bold headline:
Delta Needs Two Haneda Slots for Honolulu service to provide meaningful competition in the Top US-Tokyo Demand Market
- United/ANA and prospective Hawaiian/JAL JVs would operate effective duopoly in Hawaii, Delta can provide meaningful competition with two Honolulu - Haneda slot awards
Diagram of Potential HNL-HND Slot Allocation:
ANA/UA JV: 2 total (1 from 2016 day-time allocation, and 1 from 2020 potential day-time allocation)
JL/HA ATI pending approval: 4 total (1 from 2016 day-time allocation; 1 Night-time; 2 from 2020 potential day-time allocation)
Delta: 2 total (2 from potential 2020 daytime allocation)
Delta Needs Two Haneda Slots for Honolulu service to provide meaningful competition in the Top US-Tokyo Demand Market
- United/ANA and prospective Hawaiian/JAL JVs would operate effective duopoly in Hawaii, Delta can provide meaningful competition with two Honolulu - Haneda slot awards
Diagram of Potential HNL-HND Slot Allocation:
ANA/UA JV: 2 total (1 from 2016 day-time allocation, and 1 from 2020 potential day-time allocation)
JL/HA ATI pending approval: 4 total (1 from 2016 day-time allocation; 1 Night-time; 2 from 2020 potential day-time allocation)
Delta: 2 total (2 from potential 2020 daytime allocation)
#67
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: HNL
Programs: DL PM/1MM, BW DE (lifetime), HH DE, Marriott PE (lifetime), National Emerald Executive
Posts: 7,205
Uh, yes it does - page 10 of the application document - in big bold headline:
Delta Needs Two Haneda Slots for Honolulu service to provide meaningful competition in the Top US-Tokyo Demand Market
- United/ANA and prospective Hawaiian/JAL JVs would operate effective duopoly in Hawaii, Delta can provide meaningful competition with two Honolulu - Haneda slot awards
Diagram of Potential HNL-HND Slot Allocation:
ANA/UA JV: 2 total (1 from 2016 day-time allocation, and 1 from 2020 potential day-time allocation)
JL/HA ATI pending approval: 4 total (1 from 2016 day-time allocation; 1 Night-time; 2 from 2020 potential day-time allocation)
Delta: 2 total (2 from potential 2020 daytime allocation)
Delta Needs Two Haneda Slots for Honolulu service to provide meaningful competition in the Top US-Tokyo Demand Market
- United/ANA and prospective Hawaiian/JAL JVs would operate effective duopoly in Hawaii, Delta can provide meaningful competition with two Honolulu - Haneda slot awards
Diagram of Potential HNL-HND Slot Allocation:
ANA/UA JV: 2 total (1 from 2016 day-time allocation, and 1 from 2020 potential day-time allocation)
JL/HA ATI pending approval: 4 total (1 from 2016 day-time allocation; 1 Night-time; 2 from 2020 potential day-time allocation)
Delta: 2 total (2 from potential 2020 daytime allocation)
DL is not addressing the elephant in the room: that it has been rapidly shrinking both its footprint and number of seats in the market.
It's the largest TYO-US market hands down, period. But DL has been shrinking massively the last few years. So why does it want HND slots, when while other airlines are adding capacity at NRT DL is removing it, and DL has little to no meaningful connections to offer at HND (unlike at NRT)?
#68
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Tokyo
Programs: DL Diamond, ANA Platinum
Posts: 1,532
Where does this explain why did DL downsize by a factor of approximately 6 fold over the six years in that very same TYO-HNL market (it's current HNL-NRT routes from 4x 747/A330 to 1x767)?
DL is not addressing the elephant in the room: that it has been rapidly shrinking both its footprint and number of seats in the market.
It's the largest TYO-US market hands down, period. But DL has been shrinking massively the last few years. So why does it want HND slots, when while other airlines are adding capacity at NRT DL is removing it, and DL has little to no meaningful connections to offer at HND (unlike at NRT)?
DL is not addressing the elephant in the room: that it has been rapidly shrinking both its footprint and number of seats in the market.
It's the largest TYO-US market hands down, period. But DL has been shrinking massively the last few years. So why does it want HND slots, when while other airlines are adding capacity at NRT DL is removing it, and DL has little to no meaningful connections to offer at HND (unlike at NRT)?
#69
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: SFO
Programs: OZ Diamond/*G, IHG Diamond Amb, Hilton Gold
Posts: 2,239
Does DOT take into account that UA/AA will be adding new service to HND where as DL just wants to cut NRT flights and move them to HND?
I imagine with DL, you either give just 1 or 2 or give them all they asked for because they can't realistically cut Tokyo flights to 2 a day from all hubs, but if you give them 3 or 4, they will just take what they got, cut all flights to NRT, and issue a grand press release about how the government is unfair and not getting the slots they needed forces them to cut all additional flying to Tokyo. Heck, they got MSP-HND by threatening to cut service.
I imagine with DL, you either give just 1 or 2 or give them all they asked for because they can't realistically cut Tokyo flights to 2 a day from all hubs, but if you give them 3 or 4, they will just take what they got, cut all flights to NRT, and issue a grand press release about how the government is unfair and not getting the slots they needed forces them to cut all additional flying to Tokyo. Heck, they got MSP-HND by threatening to cut service.
#70
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: LAS HNL
Programs: DL DM, 5.7 MM, UA 3.1 MM, MARRIOTT PLATINUM, AVIS FIRST, Amex Black Card
Posts: 4,479
UA is a partner with ANA. AA is a partner with JAL. DL has no partner in Japan. The DOT should recognize this and issue the permits to DL.
#71
Suspended
Join Date: Jun 2005
Programs: Delta Diamond, Marriott Ambassador & Lifetime Titanium, Hertz President's Circle, United Silver
Posts: 6,334
I'm not sure if someone else has said this as I don't have time to read through five pages of comments, but I'm curious what happens to Delta's last two intra-Asia routes, Manila and Singapore, if they get approval from the Department of Transportation.
I love Narita, if only because of the lounge and the excellent Delta staff who work there. Hopefully, all of the staff would be transferred to Haneda and a proper Sky Club would be constructed. Regardless, if Delta gets approval this is the end of an era; not just for Delta's presence at Narita, but also United because they're proposing moving flights over to HND from NRT.
The American Lake: RIP.
It's also kind of amazing that Delta isn't proposing a return to New York from Tokyo, if it gets HND slots.
I love Narita, if only because of the lounge and the excellent Delta staff who work there. Hopefully, all of the staff would be transferred to Haneda and a proper Sky Club would be constructed. Regardless, if Delta gets approval this is the end of an era; not just for Delta's presence at Narita, but also United because they're proposing moving flights over to HND from NRT.
The American Lake: RIP.
It's also kind of amazing that Delta isn't proposing a return to New York from Tokyo, if it gets HND slots.
#72
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: MSP
Programs: Delta PM, Hyatt Discoverist, Hertz PC
Posts: 2,303
I'm not sure if someone else has said this as I don't have time to read through five pages of comments, but I'm curious what happens to Delta's last two intra-Asia routes, Manila and Singapore, if they get approval from the Department of Transportation.
I love Narita, if only because of the lounge and the excellent Delta staff who work there. Hopefully, all of the staff would be transferred to Haneda and a proper Sky Club would be constructed. Regardless, if Delta gets approval this is the end of an era; not just for Delta's presence at Narita, but also United because they're proposing moving flights over to HND from NRT.
The American Lake: RIP.
It's also kind of amazing that Delta isn't proposing a return to New York from Tokyo, if it gets HND slots.
I love Narita, if only because of the lounge and the excellent Delta staff who work there. Hopefully, all of the staff would be transferred to Haneda and a proper Sky Club would be constructed. Regardless, if Delta gets approval this is the end of an era; not just for Delta's presence at Narita, but also United because they're proposing moving flights over to HND from NRT.
The American Lake: RIP.
It's also kind of amazing that Delta isn't proposing a return to New York from Tokyo, if it gets HND slots.
1. Terminate
2. Migrate to SEA/LAX direct
3. Move to ICN
#73
Suspended
Join Date: Jun 2005
Programs: Delta Diamond, Marriott Ambassador & Lifetime Titanium, Hertz President's Circle, United Silver
Posts: 6,334
California has the largest Filipino-American diaspora so Los Angeles–Manila would make the most sense. Honolulu–Manila could work too, as the Filipino population in Hawaii is also quite significant. I think it's the second-largest at least in the actual number. If you did as a percentage of the total population then probably Guam and Hawaii would have the largest communities and, theoretically, the highest demand for a Manila flight.
#74
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 159
I believe they could also look at moving to KIX/NGO. Delta used to run DTW-NGO-MNL, if they want to keep serving the Philippines, this could be an option.
#75
Join Date: Oct 2009
Programs: Marriott, IHG, Delta, United
Posts: 575
Swap out DTW for SEA on KIX, and MNL for SIN and you can make the same arguments for other shifting of the 5th freedom routes to NGO or KIX.
Basically, it would require a combination of lighter loads on the NorthAmerican-KIX/NGO load, coupled with good Japanese sales to SIN/MNL to make it worthwhile. But maybe that was the grand plan all along, considering the HKG drop and SEA-KIX add. NGO/KIX provide the opportunity for two onward routes, and DL chose MNL and SIN via SEA/DTW.
Last edited by kavok; Feb 24, 2019 at 9:15 am