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Big change on Upgrade policy Ex-AMS ( maybe more EU)

Big change on Upgrade policy Ex-AMS ( maybe more EU)

Old Jan 11, 2019, 12:37 pm
  #16  
 
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Originally Posted by Hollandair
First of all, what I stated is not my opinion or anything. It is purely the statement of the KLagents at the Crown lounge at AMS.Secondly, you ask why they didnt put an end to it? Let me ask a question:
If all GUC upgrades have cleared and processed. And 1 hour prior departure there are 2 open D1 seats left. What is the harm selling them for some cash or miles to first come first serve, or the interested person with the highest status?
The harm is that people may start booking economy tickets, knowing they can consistently upgrade to business for a fraction of the retail price at the airport. And KLM was often selling the day of departure upgrades first come first served *before* processing waitlisted GUC instruments, thereby skipping over any sort of upgrade priority list. Delta doesnt offer a departure day buy up option at any other airport for their own flights - it was only a KLM program at AMS.

I know that I had previously changed my booking patterns to account for the easy availability of day of departure upgrades at AMS, and I suspect I wasnt the only one.
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Old Jan 11, 2019, 12:51 pm
  #17  
 
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Originally Posted by BenA


The harm is that people may start booking economy tickets, knowing they can consistently upgrade to business for a fraction of the retail price at the airport. And KLM was often selling the day of departure upgrades first come first served *before* processing waitlisted GUC instruments, thereby skipping over any sort of upgrade priority list. Delta doesn’t offer a departure day buy up option at any other airport for their own flights - it was only a KLM program at AMS.

I know that I had previously changed my booking patterns to account for the easy availability of day of departure upgrades at AMS, and I suspect I wasn’t the only one.
I'm genuinely curious on whether the data supports this. The venn diagram of people who are not paying with OPM for business class (who would just buy outright) and the folks that wouldn't be able to find relatively inexpensive D1 pricing given Delta's discounting on low demand times must be relatively small. The upgrade costs usually ends up being around $750-1000 one way, so $1600-2000 round trip. Certainly a big discount relative to a walk-up J fare but when you add in a $1000 base ticket, $2500-3000 is well within the range you can find discounted D1 tickets for. I could go buy a $3,600 D1 ticket departing mid-March nonstop from Atlanta, so that is only a $600 premium from a DoD upgrade. If I go to April Delta will sell it for $2600 - again, nonstop. On those it would actually be more expensive to buy an Economy ticket and then pay the AMS upgrade fees (at least on a round-trip basis).


If they're afraid of people buying a last minute Y ticket and then upgrading at the airport, they could easily restrict that by requiring the fare have been purchased > 7 or 14 days out, etc.

Agree on the GUC issue, but I doubt that is the root cause. Delta doesn't care whether or not GUCs clear and they consistently make every effort to reduce GUC redemption rates (insanely discounted D1 fares during low demand periods, shrinking D1 cabins, etc).
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Old Jan 11, 2019, 1:06 pm
  #18  
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Originally Posted by SFTNYC
If I understand correctly, the problem is AF/KL are selling DOD cash upgrades before all GUCs have cleared (in addition to the revenue dilution issue already pointed out - why pay full price for something now you think you may get for a steep discount later)
No, KLM was selling unsold seats after clearing at Ultra last minute... Seats that would have stayed empty. I think most of the times those planes leave with full D1 so not buying D1 and gambling youll get it at the airport would be a long long long shot and not realistic.
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Old Jan 11, 2019, 1:09 pm
  #19  
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Originally Posted by BenA


The harm is that people may start booking economy tickets, knowing they can consistently upgrade to business for a fraction of the retail price at the airport. And KLM was often selling the day of departure upgrades first come first served *before* processing waitlisted GUC instruments, thereby skipping over any sort of upgrade priority list. Delta doesnt offer a departure day buy up option at any other airport for their own flights - it was only a KLM program at AMS.

I know that I had previously changed my booking patterns to account for the easy availability of day of departure upgrades at AMS, and I suspect I wasnt the only one.
That could have easily been solved by making sure that GUC clear before mileage upgrades are possible. Its not rocket science besides that I am positive that DL would prefer to receive 500EUR for an upgrade instead of a GUC burn, but I cannot proof or support that in any way.
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Old Jan 11, 2019, 1:13 pm
  #20  
 
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Originally Posted by pvn
I
Delta doesn't care whether or not GUCs clear and they consistently make every effort to reduce GUC redemption rates (insanely discounted D1 fares during low demand periods, shrinking D1 cabins, etc).[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure. I think they may care more about their GUC program having at least *some* real opportunity for upgrade, and not totally pissing off their best customers, more than they care about this one very small revenue stream of DOD upgrades at one airport. And, if for any reason KL was trying to sell these upgrades before clearing GUC's so that they could earn more revenue, I could see that upsetting DL.

Plus, I think you ethernal was right to question the idea that DL is trying to protect their product here. ~$600 + 25K miles (so for arguments sake $850) for a one way upgrade is really not, as ethernal said, a super discounted price compared to advanced purchase fares. It's a good deal, for sure, but if you think of the r/t price of that $1K coach ticket plus $850 each way (which I know you can't actually do), you are at $2700 for a TATL J ticket. A good price, but findable with an advanced purchase.
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Old Jan 11, 2019, 1:20 pm
  #21  
 
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Any speculation on whether a DoD upgrade for a Delta ticketed flight on KLM metal would still be available?
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Old Jan 11, 2019, 1:49 pm
  #22  
 
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Originally Posted by jdrtravel

Plus, I think you ethernal was right to question the idea that DL is trying to protect their product here. ~$600 + 25K miles (so for arguments sake $850) for a one way upgrade is really not, as ethernal said, a super discounted price compared to advanced purchase fares. It's a good deal, for sure, but if you think of the r/t price of that $1K coach ticket plus $850 each way (which I know you can't actually do), you are at $2700 for a TATL J ticket. A good price, but findable with an advanced purchase.
It's a super-discounted price compared to every TATL J ticket I have bought over the last few years, and I would guess compared to the average J fare paid. I doubt $2700 is the average fare. There are enough threads on this topic to make me think that 'protecting the product' plus the GUC issue are the drivers behind this decision.

Last edited by CalebMCO; Jan 11, 2019 at 1:57 pm
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Old Jan 11, 2019, 2:11 pm
  #23  
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Originally Posted by KevinSFO
Any speculation on whether a DoD upgrade for a Delta ticketed flight on KLM metal would still be available?
It will be, KL using different method. They dont have elite upgrade certificate. within 3 hrs prior departures everybody gets the same offer first come first serve.
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Old Jan 11, 2019, 2:14 pm
  #24  
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Originally Posted by CalebMCO
It's a super-discounted price compared to every TATL J ticket I have bought over the last few years, and I would guess compared to the average J fare paid. I doubt $2700 is the average fare. There are enough threads on this topic to make me think that 'protecting the product' plus the GUC issue are the drivers behind this decision.
What you see here in Europe. 1400-1800$ J roundtrip Europe-USA are quite common nowadays. So 800 for one way on a already purchased ticket is not a bargain or a good deal IMO.. 300 might be.. But this is the stuff we collect miles for right? Otherwise what are they worth..?
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Old Jan 11, 2019, 2:21 pm
  #25  
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The new approach might be useful as GUC protection, as mentioned by BenA. If they're not going to allow any mileage upgrades DoD they ought to manage mileage upgrade inventory (and GUC) more actively T-72 to T-24.

We're not going to see any data on how many J seats KL sold from AMS vs. other markets ('protecting the premium cabin'), nor how many J seats went to nonrevs. But Delta knows. KL can accuse Delta of just throwing away $.
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Old Jan 11, 2019, 4:54 pm
  #26  
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Originally Posted by SFTNYC
If I understand correctly, the problem is AF/KL are selling DOD cash upgrades before all GUCs have cleared (in addition to the revenue dilution issue already pointed out - why pay full price for something now you think you may get for a steep discount later)
It must be entirely about revenue dilution, because the Delta I know wouldnt give two hoots that a premium cabin seat went to someone willing to shell out some extra coin to upgrade from Economy instead of someone getting it for free via a GUC.
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Old Jan 11, 2019, 6:27 pm
  #27  
 
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Maybe the Gate Agents weren’t closing the door way before the published departure like Delta seems to like to do and so Management (or their consultants, who fly paid business class) figured eliminating the upgrades would result in more early departures.
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Old Jan 11, 2019, 6:41 pm
  #28  
 
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As a datapoint: i was able to clear an GUC in the Crown Lounge today for an KL operated und marketed flight, so the KLM agents are able to clear these on DOD. If you are complain about the difficult mileage/certs upgrades keep in mind that DELTA could have cleared you in advance any day they wanted too but they choose not to do so.
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Old Jan 11, 2019, 7:05 pm
  #29  
 
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Darn!

As a soon to be ex-DM I was considering routing my returns thru AMS to occasionally score an upgrade, as no more GUCs. I could still do than on KLM metal I guess but I like Delta's C+ (on 333) more than KLM's (usually on 747 Combi)

The last time I successfully got an upgrade it was for 35K Skymiles straight up (no copay). I was pleasantly surprised as I was expecting 25K SM plus €400 or so.

I was hoping try again on my trip last month but when I got to Schiphol I found I had been (non OpUp as Y was empty) upgraded already.
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Old Jan 11, 2019, 7:18 pm
  #30  
 
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An issue affecting all of this is that westbound (by day) TATL in D1 just isn't as valuable as eastbound (overnight) D1, certainly to the eastern US. KLM wants to monetize empty westbound sleeper seats as a cheap upgrade; DL sees them as a painless way to satisfy elites using GUCs.

I found westbound on Norwegian in a Business seat to be more comfortable than being awake in a D1 seat. $699 last summer MAD-JFK.
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