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DL request for US-HND "gateway flexibility"

DL request for US-HND "gateway flexibility"

Old Dec 24, 18, 12:39 pm
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DL request for US-HND "gateway flexibility"

On Dec 19, 2018, Delta requested permission from DOT for "gateway flexibility" for their flights from the US to Haneda.

https://www.regulations.gov/document...2016-0048-0295

If permission is granted to Delta for "gateway flexibility", from which airports would Delta likely operate their current two frequencies to Haneda?

Current operations are LAX-HND and MSP-HND.
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Old Dec 24, 18, 12:45 pm
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DL isn't asking to move any routes currently in use. In simplest form when additional slots are handed out they're asking that they not be gateway specific. If that happens they're also asking that current slots be given same flexibility.
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Old Dec 24, 18, 1:19 pm
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Delta has abused their presence at HND. It's a privilege, not a right. They should be grateful for whatever they get and operate the flight in accordance to the rules. What the did with SEA-HND was incredibly disrespectful to the DOT and Japanese authorities. HND is their primary airport serving local traffic in Toyko just as LaGuardia is our primary airport serving local passengers in NYC. Even if the runways at LGA were long enough and we lifted the perimeter rule we still would give priority to US airlines just as Tokyo gives priority to their airlines at HND. If Delta doesn't like the arrival and departure times then they should go back to NRT.
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Old Dec 24, 18, 1:51 pm
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Originally Posted by readywhenyouare View Post
Delta has abused their presence at HND. It's a privilege, not a right. They should be grateful for whatever they get and operate the flight in accordance to the rules. What the did with SEA-HND was incredibly disrespectful to the DOT and Japanese authorities. HND is their primary airport serving local traffic in Toyko just as LaGuardia is our primary airport serving local passengers in NYC. Even if the runways at LGA were long enough and we lifted the perimeter rule we still would give priority to US airlines just as Tokyo gives priority to their airlines at HND. If Delta doesn't like the arrival and departure times then they should go back to NRT.
That's not entirely fair. The rise of long-range and ultra-long range wide-bodied planes like the A350 and B787 has allowed for a lot more origin/destination routes between the US and Asia. The result has been a significant decline in connecting traffic through once thriving hubs like NRT in favor of direct flights to smaller airports (like HND). Delta's Asia traffic has declined significant over the last few years, forcing them to retool their strategy including dropping NRT as a hub. It's not surprising that Delta wants more flights and more flexibility into HND and you can't really blame them for pursuing it.
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Old Dec 24, 18, 2:11 pm
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Originally Posted by readywhenyouare View Post
Delta has abused their presence at HND. It's a privilege, not a right. They should be grateful for whatever they get and operate the flight in accordance to the rules. What the did with SEA-HND was incredibly disrespectful to the DOT and Japanese authorities. HND is their primary airport serving local traffic in Toyko just as LaGuardia is our primary airport serving local passengers in NYC. Even if the runways at LGA were long enough and we lifted the perimeter rule we still would give priority to US airlines just as Tokyo gives priority to their airlines at HND. If Delta doesn't like the arrival and departure times then they should go back to NRT.
You're talking about privileges and rights?

To a multi billion dollar corporation?

Companies do not care about being "disrespectful" to the DOT or to the Japanese government. They care about their bottom line and keeping their competitors away.

Sure, what Delta did may have been wrong, but it was completely legal and strategically made sense (squatting on their slots).
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Old Dec 24, 18, 2:25 pm
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Originally Posted by rucksack View Post
The result has been a significant decline in connecting traffic through once thriving hubs like NRT in favor of direct flights to smaller airports (like HND).
Isn't HND passenger volume more than double NRT?
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Old Dec 24, 18, 3:05 pm
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Originally Posted by keitherson View Post
You're talking about privileges and rights?

To a multi billion dollar corporation?

Companies do not care about being "disrespectful" to the DOT or to the Japanese government. They care about their bottom line and keeping their competitors away.

Sure, what Delta did may have been wrong, but it was completely legal and strategically made sense (squatting on their slots).
No, it didn't make sense. Those HND slots are supposed to benefit all US citizens. Delta squatting on the slot and running a SEA-HND flight once every 60 days was shameful and the DOT finally had to threaten them. Delta should have given it back and let AA run DFW-HND or give it to Hawaiian Airlines since the have been the most successful at HND.
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Old Dec 24, 18, 3:24 pm
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Originally Posted by moondog View Post
Isn't HND passenger volume more than double NRT?
The point is that NRT, as a hub, is no longer practical due to the ability to economically overfly it to elsewhere in Asia. I donít think that point is remotely debatable.
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Old Dec 24, 18, 4:08 pm
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The SEA-HND shenanigans were indeed viewed pretty dimly by the DOT. I strongly suspect they will keep that past experience in mind when evaluating this request, and I donít expect it to be approved.
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Old Dec 24, 18, 4:26 pm
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Originally Posted by readywhenyouare View Post


No, it didn't make sense. Those HND slots are supposed to benefit all US citizens. Delta squatting on the slot and running a SEA-HND flight once every 60 days was shameful and the DOT finally had to threaten them. Delta should have given it back and let AA run DFW-HND or give it to Hawaiian Airlines since the have been the most successful at HND.
Delta was playing by the rules at the time, even if you don't like the rules.

AA then asked the DOT to review, and they gave Delta new guidance on what they could and could not do. Delta then immediately complied with the new rules.

Delta also DID cede the route authority back to the DOT when it determined it could no longer continue the route, which AA got.

Since the daytime slots at HND opened up, Delta has had no issues running both MSP and LAX daily, without issue.

Last edited by WidgetTravels; Dec 24, 18 at 9:25 pm
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Old Dec 24, 18, 5:06 pm
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Originally Posted by pbarnette View Post
The point is that NRT, as a hub, is no longer practical due to the ability to economically overfly it to elsewhere in Asia. I donít think that point is remotely debatable.
Exactly.

Originally Posted by moondog View Post
Isn't HND passenger volume more than double NRT?
"Smaller" was a lazy word choice. What I meant was more local/regional airports with less connecting traffic. This pair of charts tells the story:

Red = domestic flights
Blue = international flights


NRT traffic


HND traffic
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Old Dec 24, 18, 6:45 pm
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Seems premature to be requesting this since we don't know how many slots Japan will be assigning to the US.
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Old Dec 24, 18, 8:50 pm
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Originally Posted by readywhenyouare View Post
No, it didn't make sense. Those HND slots are supposed to benefit all US citizens. Delta squatting on the slot and running a SEA-HND flight once every 60 days was shameful and the DOT finally had to threaten them. Delta should have given it back and let AA run DFW-HND or give it to Hawaiian Airlines since the have been the most successful at HND.
Delta used to be a great airline. In the past decade or so, I have come to increasingly loathe it. What they did with the HND slots was reprehensible, although not at all surprising to me coming from DL.
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Old Dec 24, 18, 10:06 pm
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Originally Posted by MikeFromTokyo View Post


Delta used to be a great airline. In the past decade or so, I have come to increasingly loathe it. What they did with the HND slots was reprehensible, although not at all surprising to me coming from DL.
Just out of curiosity, when you say that Delta used to be a great airline, which Delta are you talking about? PMNW, pre-merger Delta, or Delta? Deltaís position in NRT was primarily due to the merger with Northwest. What did you like about Delta in the past and what do you loathe about Delta now?
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Old Dec 24, 18, 10:43 pm
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Originally Posted by rucksack View Post


Just out of curiosity, when you say that Delta used to be a great airline, which Delta are you talking about? PMNW, pre-merger Delta, or Delta? Delta’s position in NRT was primarily due to the merger with Northwest. What did you like about Delta in the past and what do you loathe about Delta now?
I'm from the PMDL days although I have no problem acknowledging that NWA had their advantages over Delta, such as a better website and better frequent flyer program. I liked Delta because I loved their hubs and I loved their employees. Before the merger ATL wasn't a madhouse and you could actually find a quiet gate to relax at sometimes. And no one could beat the performance numbers of CVG. Those guys managed to get my luggage on the flight when I only had five minutes to catch my connection due to a medical emergency that made our inbound late. And the upgrades were pretty consistent, even as a silver. Overall it was nice having a warm smile and great service from check-in until the flight attendant said goodbye on your last flight. Now it seems Delta is running a media company that just so happens to fly planes.
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