Delta Bans Puppies and Kittens as Service/Support Animals
#76
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Body in the CLE, soul still in New England
Programs: In 2023? Does it matter? SPG/Marriott: Plat; DL: Plat; B6: Mosaic
Posts: 2,979
Okay, I get what you guys are saying, that DL is not adhering to the law. I haven't read the actual statue, and if they are violating it, I hope it is only the first step in getting the law changed. Jen out.
#77
Suspended
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: MEM
Programs: Starbucks Green Card
Posts: 5,431
I don't think that restricting ESAs to animals over a certain age is necessarily a violation of the law. My point was that delta can't just decide to charge for ESAs or block them altogether.
#78
Suspended
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: MEM
Programs: Starbucks Green Card
Posts: 5,431
Also, FWIW, I'm totally fine with civil disobedience as a method to change unjust laws (I encourage it, in fact), but I would not agree that the ACAA is unjust and I don't think coroporations should be engaging in civil disobedience as a matter of policy. The idea that they might put their front line employees into legal peril as a condition of their job is pretty unconscionable IMO.
#79
Join Date: Aug 2018
Programs: SkyMiles, HHonors, Marriott
Posts: 129
(2) On a flight segment scheduled to take 8 hours or more, you may, as a condition of permitting a service animal to travel in the cabin, require the passenger using the service animal to provide documentation that the animal will not need to relieve itself on the flight or that the animal can relieve itself in a way that does not create a health or sanitation issue on the flight.
#80
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,877
Funny thing. People who want to park in handicapped parking spaces have to provide documentation to the DMV to obtain the handicapped placard, which is only valid for a certain period, after which renewal is required. I see no difference in adjusting the rules/laws/whatever to require owners of service animals or ESA's to do the same thing, especially when one can purchase fake "service animal" vests on the Internet.
#81
Suspended
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: MEM
Programs: Starbucks Green Card
Posts: 5,431
The devil is in the details here. A typical ESA is not going to have any documentation whatsoever, so while the law requires ESAs to be permitted, it also permits airlines to set certain regulations. Therefore, Delta is essentially flipping the script: "prove to us that the support animal in question has been trained to hold it in or not to make a mess." A properly-trained service animal will have had this training. In all likelihood, an ESA will not. My gut says that Delta will be on legal safe ground unless and until someone manages to try to bring an ESA on a long-haul flight with documentation as described above (and I'm guessing said documentation will need to come from some outside authority.)
#82
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: San Antonio
Programs: DL DM, Former AA EXP now AY Plat, AC 75K, NW Plat, Former CO Gold, Hilton Diamond, Marriott Titanium
Posts: 27,042
ESAs by definition do not have documentation because there's nothing to document. Any animal can be an ESA. The documentation is for the person who needs the ESA, not for the animal. There's no "outside authority" to document them. I mean, there are people who might sell you something purporting to be ESA documentation but any such document is legally meaningless.
#83
Join Date: Aug 2018
Programs: SkyMiles, HHonors, Marriott
Posts: 129
ESAs by definition do not have documentation because there's nothing to document. Any animal can be an ESA. The documentation is for the person who needs the ESA, not for the animal. There's no "outside authority" to document them. I mean, there are people who might sell you something purporting to be ESA documentation but any such document is legally meaningless.
#84
Join Date: Jan 2014
Programs: Amtrak Guest Rewards (SE), Virgin America Elevate, Hyatt Gold Passport (Platinum), VIA Preference
Posts: 3,134
I appreciate that your question asks for personal experiences-- and I don't have one-- but I do have to interject that Delta had to take an entire plane out of service for a "deep clean" because a dog pooped on a seat. Taking a plane out of service is a big deal and major expense for a carrier and can't be overlooked even if it just happens once. Flights may have been disrupted later without passengers knowing why.
[I applaud Delta's goal of reducing such incidents, but the proper way of doing so is through the federal rule-making process.]
[I applaud Delta's goal of reducing such incidents, but the proper way of doing so is through the federal rule-making process.]
To be fair, the policy (as presented) is potentially problematic...but I wouldn't be surprised if there's a "waiver of policy" if the pax can produce documentation about the animal's ability to "behave itself".
Adjunct to this: I really have to wonder how the press fallout would go if Delta took to just banning the more absurd ESAs (turkeys, cockatoos, and the like) at-gate. To be fair, I suspect the moral umbrage usually associated with "the big, bad airline" would be undermined by news anchors struggling to keep a straight face.
#85
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 863
The law is not intended for transportation of puppies. It’s to allow those with a disability to travel with a ESA if they need it for support.
#86
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: VPS
Programs: IHG Diamond, Delta PM, Hilton Gold, Accor Gold, Marriott Silver
Posts: 7,265
This raises an uncomfortable question: Is it possible that DL got some mixture of a DOT decision not to enforce (which, at a bare minimum, would take someone suing the DOT to reverse and thus probably take a winding path to the Supreme Court and a wonderful discussion on non-delegation doctrine) and decided that the costs of probable flight canx due to incidents like this were more than the costs of taking a fine? .
Combine liability insurance cost increases and any civil settlements we don't know about and Delta really could be making a calculated decision that any government fine makes more sense than the other cost increases from allowing their old ESA policy to remain in place.
In terms of PR, it's also probably slightly in Delta's favor. Some of the biggest backers of state level laws criminalizing service animal fraud are disability rights groups because their members fell like poorly behaved and untrained alleged SAs and fake ESAs poison the well for people for have a legit need for highly trained and well behaved real SAs.
#87
Join Date: Aug 2018
Programs: SkyMiles, HHonors, Marriott
Posts: 129
Adjunct to this: I really have to wonder how the press fallout would go if Delta took to just banning the more absurd ESAs (turkeys, cockatoos, and the like) at-gate. To be fair, I suspect the moral umbrage usually associated with "the big, bad airline" would be undermined by news anchors struggling to keep a straight face.
The press has been pretty fair on this so far. When the airlines first started cracking down on ESAs they had a number of statistics to back up the move - statistics made available to the media, which were duly reported. Particularly notable was the comparison between "registered" service animals and ESAs: service animals travel with a percentage of the population at a fairly stable rate, whereas the number of ESAs started to skyrocket around 2015; and as the number of ESAs climbed, so did the number of incidents. They also tracked incidents involving ESAs to service animals and found that ESAs were disproportionately problematic. And finally, when they did draft these new rules, they did so with input and feedback from several disability groups to ensure that reasonable needs were being met.
The bottom line is, all the numbers point to a growing chunk of the traveling public trying to find ways to travel with the family pet without paying for it, and "emotional support" isn't all that much of a stretch. But when enough people game the system, it ruins it for everyone.
#88
Join Date: Nov 2008
Programs: DL PM, MM; Marriott Plat
Posts: 458
The other issue is Delta no longer takes animals as checked luggage, only as cargo. So if you have a dog that is too large to fit under the seat, you are in a real bind if you want to fly with it. This is also a component of the abuse of ESA, if you have a midsize or larger dog, there is no other option for traveling with it.
#89
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Minneapolis: DL DM charter 2.3MM
Programs: A3*Gold, SPG Plat, HyattDiamond, MarriottPP, LHW exAccess, ICI, Raffles Amb, NW PE MM, TWA Gold MM
Posts: 100,409
Some owners of trained service dogs are concerned that the untrained fakes could attack their dogs and cause injury or even death. It's not just people who are at risk.
Moreover, I'm sure DL is concerned about the safety of employees in the presence of so many untrained ESAs. It would be ugly to have a FA caught in the middle of a dog fight at 30,000 feet. [I wonder whether a FAM would shoot to kill if an "ESA" were attacking a human.]
Moreover, I'm sure DL is concerned about the safety of employees in the presence of so many untrained ESAs. It would be ugly to have a FA caught in the middle of a dog fight at 30,000 feet. [I wonder whether a FAM would shoot to kill if an "ESA" were attacking a human.]
#90
Suspended
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: MEM
Programs: Starbucks Green Card
Posts: 5,431