VDB-ed but Full Gate Agent Offer Not Honored - What to do now?
Dec 9, 2018, 3:29 pm
#61
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The moral to this story is that the gate agents were correct when they told btonkid that the people on the DM line had "magical powers." 'Cause they made it happen!
Dec 9, 2018, 5:05 pm
#63
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Sadly this seems to be true.
Mr. Woolman would be ashamed.
Dec 9, 2018, 5:19 pm
#64
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 2,881
I don’t think it’s as doom and gloom as it seems. It’s possible that RM just had a problem with how the upgrade was reissued. Like I mentioned earlier, if the GA had priced the desired upgrade, issued the voucher with the upgrade cost added on top, then sold the upgrade and handed the OP the remaining $2k, I doubt anyone would have a problem—the upgrade would be accounted for in the VDB amount, and the OP would get the extra benefits of a higher paid ticket.
Dec 9, 2018, 5:20 pm
#65
Join Date: Mar 2010
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Like I mentioned earlier, if the GA had priced the desired upgrade, issued the voucher with the upgrade cost added on top, then sold the upgrade and handed the OP the remaining $2k, I doubt anyone would have a problem—the upgrade would be accounted for in the VDB amount, and the OP would get the extra benefits of a higher paid ticket.
Dec 9, 2018, 5:26 pm
#66
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 2,881
I’m not here to talk about a policy unless it’s posted on delta.com.
But wouldn’t that process benefit everyone involved, including the passenger? A free upgrade wouldn’t net any extra miles, but selling an upgrade with a bigger voucher should, and the useable value remaining is effectively unchanged.
If I were negotiating for an upgrade with VDB, I’d ask for it to be processed that way so I could get extra miles, and I’d be confident that my “paid” upgrade wouldn’t get taken away.
But wouldn’t that process benefit everyone involved, including the passenger? A free upgrade wouldn’t net any extra miles, but selling an upgrade with a bigger voucher should, and the useable value remaining is effectively unchanged.
If I were negotiating for an upgrade with VDB, I’d ask for it to be processed that way so I could get extra miles, and I’d be confident that my “paid” upgrade wouldn’t get taken away.
Dec 9, 2018, 5:33 pm
#67
Join Date: Mar 2010
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I’m not here to talk about a policy unless it’s posted on delta.com.
But wouldn’t that process benefit everyone involved, including the passenger? A free upgrade wouldn’t net any extra miles, but selling an upgrade with a bigger voucher should, and the useable value remaining is effectively unchanged.
If I were negotiating for an upgrade with VDB, I’d ask for it to be processed that way so I could get extra miles, and I’d be confident that my “paid” upgrade wouldn’t get taken away.
So it's not a policy.
Considering that your original concern was accounting being thrown off, this solution would only make that worse.
I certainly don't think DL wants to start handing out the extra RDM's and MQM's that a customer would get if the J tickets were sold as a walkup. I imagine that to sell it this way that a GA would have to be handing out $5K-$10K vdb credits.
Furthermore, what happens if the new flight has an issue and the customer gets a refund? Now that customer has an enormous credit that they did not really deserve or earn and DL has really lost out. It's just not good or well thought through idea.
Dec 9, 2018, 5:42 pm
#68
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 2,881
So it's not a policy.
Considering that your original concern was accounting being thrown off, this solution would only make that worse.
I certainly don't think DL wants to start handing out the extra RDM's and MQM's that a customer would get if the J tickets were sold as a walkup. I imagine that to sell it this way that a GA would have to be handing out $5K-$10K vdb credits.
Furthermore, what happens if THAT flight has an issue, now that customer has an enormous credit and DL has really lost out. It's just not good or well thought through idea.
Considering that your original concern was accounting being thrown off, this solution would only make that worse.
I certainly don't think DL wants to start handing out the extra RDM's and MQM's that a customer would get if the J tickets were sold as a walkup. I imagine that to sell it this way that a GA would have to be handing out $5K-$10K vdb credits.
Furthermore, what happens if THAT flight has an issue, now that customer has an enormous credit and DL has really lost out. It's just not good or well thought through idea.
Magically reissuing a Y ticket into J without any fare collection is difficult or impossible to account for in VDB forecasting. How would RM know that X number of passengers were only willing to volunteer in exchange for free upgrades, whose costs weren’t tracked because the ticket values weren’t adjusted?
Giving free upgrades will make it look like the GA got volunteers for a relatively low VDB amount, which would let RM think they can overbook by more than they should because the true cost of VDB wasn’t counted. The GA sees a $2k voucher and a free upgrade which might’ve prevented the airline from selling the seat for a few $100, but all RM might see is the $2k voucher. The lost revenue from the upgrade isn’t accounted for anywhere. Using a higher voucher to pay for the upgrade would allow for accounting, and RM would see the true cost of the VDB and plan accordingly (presumably by overbooking less).
Dec 9, 2018, 6:19 pm
#69
Join Date: Mar 2010
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Posts: 8,414
Op-ups.
Magically reissuing a Y ticket into J without any fare collection is difficult or impossible to account for in VDB forecasting. How would RM know that X number of passengers were only willing to volunteer in exchange for free upgrades, whose costs weren’t tracked because the ticket values weren’t adjusted?
Dec 9, 2018, 6:30 pm
#70
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VDB accounting is specifically used for future overbooking forecasting. Measuring what compensation is given to VDBs is important for cost-benefit analysis of future overbookings. Other issues like the cost of deadheading crew aren’t relevant to VDB accounting. I’m not aware of any other circumstance where a Y ticket is turned into a J ticket without consuming miles, dollars, an upgrade instrument, or by reissuing into complimentary upgrade inventory, which can be accounted for.
Giving free upgrades will make it look like the GA got volunteers for a relatively low VDB amount, which would let RM think they can overbook by more than they should because the true cost of VDB wasn’t counted. The GA sees a $2k voucher and a free upgrade which might’ve prevented the airline from selling the seat for a few $100, but all RM might see is the $2k voucher. The lost revenue from the upgrade isn’t accounted for anywhere. Using a higher voucher to pay for the upgrade would allow for accounting, and RM would see the true cost of the VDB and plan accordingly (presumably by overbooking less).
Giving free upgrades will make it look like the GA got volunteers for a relatively low VDB amount, which would let RM think they can overbook by more than they should because the true cost of VDB wasn’t counted. The GA sees a $2k voucher and a free upgrade which might’ve prevented the airline from selling the seat for a few $100, but all RM might see is the $2k voucher. The lost revenue from the upgrade isn’t accounted for anywhere. Using a higher voucher to pay for the upgrade would allow for accounting, and RM would see the true cost of the VDB and plan accordingly (presumably by overbooking less).
Congrats!
Dec 9, 2018, 7:09 pm
#71
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 2,881
Haha nah I prefer working with people 
I’m just speculating using business finance principles I learned in college/use at my day job. My full time gig is accounting at a credit union. RM jobs are so hard to come by
edit: and with that being said, all my comments here are my personal opinion on how an airline RM dept is likely to act. I have no idea what actually happens behind the scenes, and I wouldn’t want to seem like I pretend to. These are just my personal opinions as a smalltime accountant with a finance degree and marginal familiarity with the customer service side of flight overbooking
I’m just speculating using business finance principles I learned in college/use at my day job. My full time gig is accounting at a credit union. RM jobs are so hard to come by
edit: and with that being said, all my comments here are my personal opinion on how an airline RM dept is likely to act. I have no idea what actually happens behind the scenes, and I wouldn’t want to seem like I pretend to. These are just my personal opinions as a smalltime accountant with a finance degree and marginal familiarity with the customer service side of flight overbooking
Last edited by Widgets; Dec 9, 2018 at 7:17 pm
Dec 13, 2018, 6:36 pm
#72
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VDB accounting is specifically used for future overbooking forecasting. Measuring what compensation is given to VDBs is important for cost-benefit analysis of future overbookings. Other issues like the cost of deadheading crew aren’t relevant to VDB accounting. I’m not aware of any other circumstance where a Y ticket is turned into a J ticket without consuming miles, dollars, an upgrade instrument, or by reissuing into complimentary upgrade inventory, which can be accounted for.
Magically reissuing a Y ticket into J without any fare collection is difficult or impossible to account for in VDB forecasting. How would RM know that X number of passengers were only willing to volunteer in exchange for free upgrades, whose costs weren’t tracked because the ticket values weren’t adjusted?
Giving free upgrades will make it look like the GA got volunteers for a relatively low VDB amount, which would let RM think they can overbook by more than they should because the true cost of VDB wasn’t counted. The GA sees a $2k voucher and a free upgrade which might’ve prevented the airline from selling the seat for a few $100, but all RM might see is the $2k voucher. The lost revenue from the upgrade isn’t accounted for anywhere. Using a higher voucher to pay for the upgrade would allow for accounting, and RM would see the true cost of the VDB and plan accordingly (presumably by overbooking less).
As for policy, it must not be widely followed if it is. I've seen and been offered upgrades all the time as part of VDB.
Dec 13, 2018, 6:59 pm
#73
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The airport (unless it is a privately owned airport or facility like Branson Missouri or JFK's T4) is public property and you have the right to record anything you can see from a public space (TSA screens and off limits areas aside).
The gate area is public, if this happened on the aircraft that would be a different story as that is private property.
The gate area is public, if this happened on the aircraft that would be a different story as that is private property.
The plane even though privately owned is a public area. You can record without consent. However the owner (through its employees) can demand you leave if you refuse to stop. What they can't do is force you to stop recording.
Dec 14, 2018, 3:00 pm
#74
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Well, to add injury to insult, someone somewhere left a note that the ticket has no value remaining and no further changes allowed.
I called earlier this week due to a schedule change and to apply a GUC on the return. Agent noted those comments to me (first time I had heard them, and besides the VDB rebooking no other changes were made outside the Risk Free period) but said they didn't make sense.
He went to a Supervisor who approved changes for purposes of schedule change or SDC and noted this...called again tonight briefly before dinner to check for UG space and agent said no changes and I need to speak to a supervisor....so much wasted time, I may try a Supervisor directly after dinner.
Darn Delta, please stop wasting so much of your HVCs time!
If they don't assist, I may seriously consider a DOT complaint as this is getting ridiculous.
I called earlier this week due to a schedule change and to apply a GUC on the return. Agent noted those comments to me (first time I had heard them, and besides the VDB rebooking no other changes were made outside the Risk Free period) but said they didn't make sense.
He went to a Supervisor who approved changes for purposes of schedule change or SDC and noted this...called again tonight briefly before dinner to check for UG space and agent said no changes and I need to speak to a supervisor....so much wasted time, I may try a Supervisor directly after dinner.
Darn Delta, please stop wasting so much of your HVCs time!
If they don't assist, I may seriously consider a DOT complaint as this is getting ridiculous.
Dec 14, 2018, 9:28 pm
#75
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Someone in RM or otherwise high up at DL thinks your scamming them. Call and press to see who added those remarks and when - the info is available on the PnR.
as this is an international PNR, you can also request it via a CBP FOIA request, although it’ll take about a year to process. (Intl PNRs are sent to and stored by CBP; comments made in PNR are often visible)
as this is an international PNR, you can also request it via a CBP FOIA request, although it’ll take about a year to process. (Intl PNRs are sent to and stored by CBP; comments made in PNR are often visible)