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Delta proposes to launch MSP-PVG on A359

Delta proposes to launch MSP-PVG on A359

Old Oct 22, 18, 8:44 am
  #1  
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Delta proposes to launch MSP-PVG on A359

Just out this morning, Delta is seeking slots from DOT for MSP-PVG, to launch summer of 2020. This would be Delta's first flight to China from MSP.

https://news.delta.com/delta-propose...ute-begin-2020

Most likely they're making a run at 7 of the 14 frequencies AA is seeking to hold under a dormancy waiver after ending ORD-PEK/PVG.
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Old Oct 22, 18, 8:48 am
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MSP moving up in the world! HND, soon ICN and at least a decent chance at PVG!

I have heard for years that the Mall of America has been BEGGING for direct service to China. Here's hoping!
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Old Oct 22, 18, 8:50 am
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Also, for what it's worth, I just read the filing and it has nothing to do with the AA frequencies.

With Hawaiian’s notice to the Department indicating its intent to suspend its three weekly Honolulu-Beijing flights effective October 12, 2018, and to return its corresponding three weekly Zone 1 frequencies to the Department, seven Zone 1 U.S.-China frequencies are immediately available for allocation. Following the Department’s allocation of 7 frequencies to American for Los Angeles-Beijing service in Order 2016-12-14, 1 unallocated frequency remained available to U.S. carriers. Earlier this year, United returned 3 weekly U.S.-China Zone 1 frequencies, leaving four available for allocation.

So, given that AA is looking to go dormant on 14 frequencies, Delta should have a pretty good case to get these frequencies and MSP should have a good shot at getting PVG service. Woo!
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Old Oct 22, 18, 9:01 am
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Originally Posted by jrkmsp View Post
Also, for what it's worth, I just read the filing and it has nothing to do with the AA frequencies.

With Hawaiianís notice to the Department indicating its intent to suspend its three weekly Honolulu-Beijing flights effective October 12, 2018, and to return its corresponding three weekly Zone 1 frequencies to the Department, seven Zone 1 U.S.-China frequencies are immediately available for allocation. Following the Departmentís allocation of 7 frequencies to American for Los Angeles-Beijing service in Order 2016-12-14, 1 unallocated frequency remained available to U.S. carriers. Earlier this year, United returned 3 weekly U.S.-China Zone 1 frequencies, leaving four available for allocation.

So, given that AA is looking to go dormant on 14 frequencies, Delta should have a pretty good case to get these frequencies and MSP should have a good shot at getting PVG service. Woo!
With Non-Stop service to HND, PVG, and ICN, and both PVG and ICN having onward connection options, MSP might soon be better off TPAC that it was under NW
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Old Oct 22, 18, 9:16 am
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It's surprising to me that Delta would be looking to start this route. This would mean DL services to PVG from five airports: LAX, SEA, ATL, DTW, and MSP (not even including all of their routes from their pseudo-JV with China Eastern).

Based on how Delta has been pricing its PVG routes out of LAX, DTW, and ATL, it seems like their loads are not that high. Seems odd that they would want to add even more capacity to PVG given this fact. But who knows, maybe they see more demand coming down the pike. I guess they expect big things from China Eastern?
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Old Oct 22, 18, 9:28 am
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I'm surprised they're moving ahead with this application, as opposed to making a run at the LAX-PEK they couldn't get started. I guess they see a chance to tap into additional connecting flows with AA leaving ORD-PVG, plus the strength of MU connections in PVG. Still, coming so close on the heals of ICN, it's a huge vote of confidence for the MSP hub.
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Old Oct 22, 18, 9:37 am
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Originally Posted by kop84 View Post
MSP moving up in the world! HND, soon ICN and at least a decent chance at PVG!

I have heard for years that the Mall of America has been BEGGING for direct service to China. Here's hoping!
Careful. MSP now has HND, but previously there was NRT.

In fact, PMNW did two daily 747s to NRT during much of the year and there was also a HKG nonstop for a while.

BTW, if DL plans to fill an A350 with MOA traffic, this will be a low yielding route. Perhaps the goal is more to get an AA slot than to run a route that otherwise would be considered profitable.


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Old Oct 22, 18, 9:58 am
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Originally Posted by MSPeconomist View Post
Careful. MSP now has HND, but previously there was NRT.

In fact, PMNW did two daily 747s to NRT during much of the year and there was also a HKG nonstop for a while.

BTW, if DL plans to fill an A350 with MOA traffic, this will be a low yielding route. Perhaps the goal is more to get an AA slot than to run a route that otherwise would be considered profitable.




They're not applying for the AA slots. They're applying to use vacated slots.

Last edited by jrkmsp; Oct 22, 18 at 8:53 pm
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Old Oct 22, 18, 10:05 am
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Originally Posted by MSPeconomist View Post
Careful. MSP now has HND, but previously there was NRT.

In fact, PMNW did two daily 747s to NRT during much of the year and there was also a HKG nonstop for a while.

BTW, if DL plans to fill an A350 with MOA traffic, this will be a low yielding route. Perhaps the goal is more to get an AA slot than to run a route that otherwise would be considered profitable.


I think the MOA traffic will help sell the back, and 3M, Target, Best Buy, General Mills, Cargill, etc fill the front and middle.

And if you think about just number of non-stop and 1 stop destinations, being able to connect many of the KE and MU destinations, compared to the dozen or so 5th freedom routes from NRT, and it's more attractive than ever to go TPAC from MSP

And HND is by far superior if TYO is your destination. It's right on the subway and not far from the city. If it was the Minneapolis area, HND is like MSP compared to downtown Minneapolis where NRT is practically STC

Last edited by kop84; Oct 22, 18 at 10:13 am
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Old Oct 22, 18, 10:46 am
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Originally Posted by jrkmsp View Post
Also, for what it's worth, I just read the filing and it has nothing to do with the AA frequencies.

With Hawaiianís notice to the Department indicating its intent to suspend its three weekly Honolulu-Beijing flights effective October 12, 2018, and to return its corresponding three weekly Zone 1 frequencies to the Department, seven Zone 1 U.S.-China frequencies are immediately available for allocation. Following the Departmentís allocation of 7 frequencies to American for Los Angeles-Beijing service in Order 2016-12-14, 1 unallocated frequency remained available to U.S. carriers. Earlier this year, United returned 3 weekly U.S.-China Zone 1 frequencies, leaving four available for allocation.

So, given that AA is looking to go dormant on 14 frequencies, Delta should have a pretty good case to get these frequencies and MSP should have a good shot at getting PVG service. Woo!
Can you post a link? I can't seem to find it
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Old Oct 22, 18, 10:53 am
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Originally Posted by MIDWESTERNFLYER View Post
Can you post a link? I can't seem to find it
https://airlineinfo.com/ostpdf102/888.pdf
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Old Oct 22, 18, 1:04 pm
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Originally Posted by ethernal View Post
It's surprising to me that Delta would be looking to start this route. This would mean DL services to PVG from five airports: LAX, SEA, ATL, DTW, and MSP (not even including all of their routes from their pseudo-JV with China Eastern).

Based on how Delta has been pricing its PVG routes out of LAX, DTW, and ATL, it seems like their loads are not that high. Seems odd that they would want to add even more capacity to PVG given this fact. But who knows, maybe they see more demand coming down the pike. I guess they expect big things from China Eastern?
I agree with Ethernal's doubt above as a BOS-based UA flyer who flies to PVG frequently. It is clear to me that PVG market might have been flooded with way more capacity by AA/UA/DL/AC along with the Chinese carriers and other carriers competing for the connection traffic (KE, OZ and to some extent even CX). The price in coach for BOS-PVG roundtrip has been stable around $500 to $800 year round (save for the specific peak travel time like Christmas or summer peak). I wonder how much money the airlines are making on these PVG routes. For DL, except for LAX, the other four markets (SEA, DTW, MSP and ATL) with nonstop to PVG do not have great O&D passengers to Shanghai, either, which means more competition for the connecting traffic in the bloodbath.....
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Old Oct 22, 18, 8:05 pm
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Originally Posted by kop84 View Post
[/LEFT]

I think the MOA traffic will help sell the back, and 3M, Target, Best Buy, General Mills, Cargill, etc fill the front and middle.

And if you think about just number of non-stop and 1 stop destinations, being able to connect many of the KE and MU destinations, compared to the dozen or so 5th freedom routes from NRT, and it's more attractive than ever to go TPAC from MSP

And HND is by far superior if TYO is your destination. It's right on the subway and not far from the city. If it was the Minneapolis area, HND is like MSP compared to downtown Minneapolis where NRT is practically STC
Target is notorious locally for forcing its employees to fly (deep) discount carriers for business trips. In fact, I've even heard that they're forbidden to accept upgrades or even earn FF miles for business travel, but it's hard to understand how a company would benefit from such a policy if employees can't choose their own flights.
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Old Oct 22, 18, 8:51 pm
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While this is good news for Minnesota and the Upper Midwest, the extremely early timing of the announcement is very odd. MSP-ICN was just announced a few months ago for an April 2019 start. This could easily be a June 2019 start if they wanted to.

Knowing Delta, and how itís used the MSP market as a pawn before (renegotiating bond agreements, cancelling NRT if it didnít get HND), there has to be some political/governmental angle to dangling a flagship route like this with a 20-month lead time.

Delta announced ATL-PVG and launched it 12 months later. When they announced LAX-PVG in January 2015, they launched it in July, a mere 7 months later.

So, whatís up Deltaís sleeve?
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Old Oct 22, 18, 9:04 pm
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Originally Posted by TheMoose View Post
While this is good news for Minnesota and the Upper Midwest, the extremely early timing of the announcement is very odd. MSP-ICN was just announced a few months ago for an April 2019 start. This could easily be a June 2019 start if they wanted to.

Knowing Delta, and how itís used the MSP market as a pawn before (renegotiating bond agreements, cancelling NRT if it didnít get HND), there has to be some political/governmental angle to dangling a flagship route like this with a 20-month lead time.

Delta announced ATL-PVG and launched it 12 months later. When they announced LAX-PVG in January 2015, they launched it in July, a mere 7 months later.

So, whatís up Deltaís sleeve?
It could just be as simple as the fact that A) They need to announce the route early to get the frequency allocations and B) They won't have A350 slack in their fleet until Summer 2020.

On top of that, we're well into the booking window for next summer already, and you wouldn't want to start a route in shoulder/low season.
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