Who's right, Delta or KLM? (Day of Departure GUC Upgrade Issues)
Sep 22, 2018, 10:42 am
#32
Original Poster
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: HSV
Programs: Bellevue Lifetime Premiere Mega Elite Supreme
Posts: 1,509
Look at the T&Cs for using GUCs on DL operated flights exAMS. The usual gate waitlist rules for using GUCs that clear at the gate for flights exUSA don't apply in this case. You were right to ask KLM about using miles and/or money (depending on your fare class), but I'm suspicious about there being no availability for someone asking four and a half hours before the flight as most people wouldn't have arrived at the airport so early.
It's too bad you didn't check J availability closer to departure, but how do you know it was J12? The most inventory that EF ever shows is 9 and counting empty seats on a seat map is meaningless. Note that fare class availability isn't additive, so seeing C9 and D3 doesn't imply J12.
To me, it looks like KLM decided to give the remaining D1 seats to their own nonrevs or friends and family.
It's too bad you didn't check J availability closer to departure, but how do you know it was J12? The most inventory that EF ever shows is 9 and counting empty seats on a seat map is meaningless. Note that fare class availability isn't additive, so seeing C9 and D3 doesn't imply J12.
To me, it looks like KLM decided to give the remaining D1 seats to their own nonrevs or friends and family.
I know seatmaps maps and UG availability on the app aren’t precise or altogether reliable, but I’ve never seen it be THIS bad.
Sep 22, 2018, 10:50 am
#33
Original Poster
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: HSV
Programs: Bellevue Lifetime Premiere Mega Elite Supreme
Posts: 1,509
EC261 requires compensation/refunds in cash. Accepting miles as a customer service gesture doesn't diminish EC261 obligations unless the passenger signs them away.
I agree that 10,000 RDMs doesn't seem adequate for a downgrade from D1 (to C+ I assume, seat 21B IIRC: BTW was this the OP's original seat assignment for this segment?) on a TATL flights, but letting the miles hit the OP's FF account shouldn't mean that the case is closed.
I agree that 10,000 RDMs doesn't seem adequate for a downgrade from D1 (to C+ I assume, seat 21B IIRC: BTW was this the OP's original seat assignment for this segment?) on a TATL flights, but letting the miles hit the OP's FF account shouldn't mean that the case is closed.
21B was my original seat assignment. Only center seats were available in C+ at booking, so I took the first aisle available.
Sep 22, 2018, 10:58 am
#34
Original Poster
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: HSV
Programs: Bellevue Lifetime Premiere Mega Elite Supreme
Posts: 1,509
I should add that my wife was flying with me. She was 21A but was on a different PNR with a GUC applied as well, booked same day with GUC applied same day. We specifically requested to NOT be linked (and the desk agent confirmed we were not) for obvious reasons.
She went through the saga with me. They’re giving her 10K miles.
The @Delta rep said:
Which I’m not sure they’re talking about only my wife and I, or if other Medallions were affected too.
She went through the saga with me. They’re giving her 10K miles.
The @Delta rep said:
Which I’m not sure they’re talking about only my wife and I, or if other Medallions were affected too.
Sep 22, 2018, 11:18 am
#35
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,262
So long as OP had a ticket issued into J, if he was not accommodated in J, he is entitled to a refund --- not compensation, but a refund --- of 75% of the base segment fare, e.g. the fare for AMS-ATL less taxes and fees. That refund is due in cash (equivalent). The GUC has nothing to do with base fare and is simply returned. So, OP winds up with cash + GUC.
The reasons for the failure to acommodate OP in J are irrelevant.
Make the claim to DL. My last experience in claiming from DL, albeit not on a downgrade issue, was simple and efficient. I received a call the day after I made the claim, advising that DL would pay the EUR 600 due and asking for mailing details. I had a check for US$728 a few days later.
When you make your claim to DL, keep it simple and leave out the irrelevant back-and-forth contained in this thread. Three short sentences:
#1 I was upgraded from Y (C+) to J.
#2 DL was unable to accommodate me in J.
#3 I was downgraded to Y and am due 75% of the base segment fare.
The reasons for the failure to acommodate OP in J are irrelevant.
Make the claim to DL. My last experience in claiming from DL, albeit not on a downgrade issue, was simple and efficient. I received a call the day after I made the claim, advising that DL would pay the EUR 600 due and asking for mailing details. I had a check for US$728 a few days later.
When you make your claim to DL, keep it simple and leave out the irrelevant back-and-forth contained in this thread. Three short sentences:
#1 I was upgraded from Y (C+) to J.
#2 DL was unable to accommodate me in J.
#3 I was downgraded to Y and am due 75% of the base segment fare.
Sep 22, 2018, 11:34 am
#37
Join Date: Oct 2017
Programs: DL DM 1MM
Posts: 90
Obviously the opportunity to fly in D1 has passed for this trip. Compensation via EC261 doesn't seem likely to lead to much, since there was no cost associated with the upgrade. The main recourse is bonus miles.One could say "Thanks for the 10k bonus miles, but that's not enough because...". And then it's hard to justify the "because...". I have or have heard of others getting more, and I'm greedy? I was deluded for a couple of hours about the quality of my TATL? I spent 3 hours in fruitless conversation with DL / KLM agents about as clueless as me, when I could have been enjoying the KLM lounge? I would either drop it (for my own sanity) or leave it at "Thanks for the 10k bonus miles, but that's not enough" without any "because...", and being happy with wherever that goes.
For future trips / lessons learned for others, I guess it is that a GUC that clears 24 hours before departure is great. A GUC at 24 hours and closer to departure requires interaction with KLM, especially the gate agents and against really unknown rules; interacting with Delta (at whatever level) really is not definitive.
My own recent experience ex-AMS was to be assigned a D1 seat at the gate, to occupy it and take the first sip of a PDB, and then to be asked to do the 'walk of shame' back to (a relatively open) C+ because 'an error had occurred'. What's a person to do? I didn't ask to speak to a 'red coat', I didn't file an EU261 complaint, I didn't ask Delta to provide a customer service gesture. I marveled to myself at the negative experience and added it to my now quite complicated set of rules for airline, flight, and route selection.
For future trips / lessons learned for others, I guess it is that a GUC that clears 24 hours before departure is great. A GUC at 24 hours and closer to departure requires interaction with KLM, especially the gate agents and against really unknown rules; interacting with Delta (at whatever level) really is not definitive.
My own recent experience ex-AMS was to be assigned a D1 seat at the gate, to occupy it and take the first sip of a PDB, and then to be asked to do the 'walk of shame' back to (a relatively open) C+ because 'an error had occurred'. What's a person to do? I didn't ask to speak to a 'red coat', I didn't file an EU261 complaint, I didn't ask Delta to provide a customer service gesture. I marveled to myself at the negative experience and added it to my now quite complicated set of rules for airline, flight, and route selection.
Sep 22, 2018, 11:58 am
#38
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: San Antonio
Programs: DL DM, Former AA EXP now AY Plat, AC 75K, NW Plat, Former CO Gold, Hilton Diamond, Marriott Titanium
Posts: 27,042
Obviously the opportunity to fly in D1 has passed for this trip. Compensation via EC261 doesn't seem likely to lead to much, since there was no cost associated with the upgrade. The main recourse is bonus miles.One could say "Thanks for the 10k bonus miles, but that's not enough because...". And then it's hard to justify the "because...". I have or have heard of others getting more, and I'm greedy? I was deluded for a couple of hours about the quality of my TATL? I spent 3 hours in fruitless conversation with DL / KLM agents about as clueless as me, when I could have been enjoying the KLM lounge? I would either drop it (for my own sanity) or leave it at "Thanks for the 10k bonus miles, but that's not enough" without any "because...", and being happy with wherever that goes.
For future trips / lessons learned for others, I guess it is that a GUC that clears 24 hours before departure is great. A GUC at 24 hours and closer to departure requires interaction with KLM, especially the gate agents and against really unknown rules; interacting with Delta (at whatever level) really is not definitive.
My own recent experience ex-AMS was to be assigned a D1 seat at the gate, to occupy it and take the first sip of a PDB, and then to be asked to do the 'walk of shame' back to (a relatively open) C+ because 'an error had occurred'. What's a person to do? I didn't ask to speak to a 'red coat', I didn't file an EU261 complaint, I didn't ask Delta to provide a customer service gesture. I marveled to myself at the negative experience and added it to my now quite complicated set of rules for airline, flight, and route selection.
For future trips / lessons learned for others, I guess it is that a GUC that clears 24 hours before departure is great. A GUC at 24 hours and closer to departure requires interaction with KLM, especially the gate agents and against really unknown rules; interacting with Delta (at whatever level) really is not definitive.
My own recent experience ex-AMS was to be assigned a D1 seat at the gate, to occupy it and take the first sip of a PDB, and then to be asked to do the 'walk of shame' back to (a relatively open) C+ because 'an error had occurred'. What's a person to do? I didn't ask to speak to a 'red coat', I didn't file an EU261 complaint, I didn't ask Delta to provide a customer service gesture. I marveled to myself at the negative experience and added it to my now quite complicated set of rules for airline, flight, and route selection.
Sep 22, 2018, 1:06 pm
#39
Original Poster
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: HSV
Programs: Bellevue Lifetime Premiere Mega Elite Supreme
Posts: 1,509
Just before departure, a woman wearing a Delta badge came onto the plane, walked back to my seat, and asked me: “Are you the one who was told he was upgraded to Delta One, but wasn’t?” (or something very close to that)
I responded with “No, I’m the one who was issued a ticket to Delta One but was denied boarding.”
I was mildly put off by what seemed like an attempt to reduce it to unreasonable expectations on my part not being met. I think she came onboard because I, very politely and with a smile, asked the purser to let me know if D1 boarded full, so I would know who to address my concerns to — DL or KL.
The purser way VERY accommodating and seemed astonished that such a thing would happen, so she called for a supervisor to board, but that interaction was brief and no other information was exchanged.
I’m not angry or livid about the situation at all. The time suck and frustration of the conflicting information is the real issue, in my personal estimation (banging out these posts on my iPhone doesn’t make it easier
I can survive a main cabin seat for 9:53 (unusually long for AMS>ATL in my experience). It’s clearly a first world problem, but IF there is SHENA here, I agree completely with flyerCO — it needs to be called out and investigated.
IF this turns out to be a big non-rev party, some heads need to roll. I suspect that’s not the case, and who knows if the real reason will ever be revealed to the outside world.
I responded with “No, I’m the one who was issued a ticket to Delta One but was denied boarding.”
I was mildly put off by what seemed like an attempt to reduce it to unreasonable expectations on my part not being met. I think she came onboard because I, very politely and with a smile, asked the purser to let me know if D1 boarded full, so I would know who to address my concerns to — DL or KL.
The purser way VERY accommodating and seemed astonished that such a thing would happen, so she called for a supervisor to board, but that interaction was brief and no other information was exchanged.
I’m not angry or livid about the situation at all. The time suck and frustration of the conflicting information is the real issue, in my personal estimation (banging out these posts on my iPhone doesn’t make it easier
I can survive a main cabin seat for 9:53 (unusually long for AMS>ATL in my experience). It’s clearly a first world problem, but IF there is SHENA here, I agree completely with flyerCO — it needs to be called out and investigated.
IF this turns out to be a big non-rev party, some heads need to roll. I suspect that’s not the case, and who knows if the real reason will ever be revealed to the outside world.
Sep 22, 2018, 1:14 pm
#40
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Minneapolis: DL DM charter 2.3MM
Programs: A3*Gold, SPG Plat, HyattDiamond, MarriottPP, LHW exAccess, ICI, Raffles Amb, NW PE MM, TWA Gold MM
Posts: 100,404
The woman with the DL badge may well have been part of the problem (and trying to convince you to drop the matter) and may have been a KLM employee or both.
The purser's attitude/actions lend further support to the suspicion that KLM did something wrong here. Pursers aren't permitted to upgrade revenue passengers on board (with very few exceptions, such as a broken seat discovered in flight where there are safety issues and the only empty seat is in a higher cabin class) but they certainly do see the manifest which indicates nonrev status among other details.
The purser's attitude/actions lend further support to the suspicion that KLM did something wrong here. Pursers aren't permitted to upgrade revenue passengers on board (with very few exceptions, such as a broken seat discovered in flight where there are safety issues and the only empty seat is in a higher cabin class) but they certainly do see the manifest which indicates nonrev status among other details.
Sep 22, 2018, 1:39 pm
#41
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 159
While I'm not sure if there were nonrevs on board or not, I don't think that's the issue here.
Like it or not, GUCs need to be processed 24 hours before for AMS/CDG departures.
Whether the seats went out open, with paying/upgraded passengers, or with nonrevs, technically the GUC shouldn't have been able to be used.
Now it's definitely Delta's fault for not knowing the rules and incorrectly processing the upgrade, and then doubling and tripling down on their incorrect response. Finding a way to make the upgrade still happen is a reasonable expectation.
Like it or not, GUCs need to be processed 24 hours before for AMS/CDG departures.
Whether the seats went out open, with paying/upgraded passengers, or with nonrevs, technically the GUC shouldn't have been able to be used.
Now it's definitely Delta's fault for not knowing the rules and incorrectly processing the upgrade, and then doubling and tripling down on their incorrect response. Finding a way to make the upgrade still happen is a reasonable expectation.
Sep 22, 2018, 1:40 pm
#42
Suspended
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: MEM
Programs: Starbucks Green Card
Posts: 5,431
I can survive a main cabin seat for 9:53 (unusually long for AMS>ATL in my experience). It’s clearly a first world problem, but IF there is SHENA here, I agree completely with flyerCO — it needs to be called out and investigated.
IF this turns out to be a big non-rev party, some heads need to roll. I suspect that’s not the case, and who knows if the real reason will ever be revealed to the outside world. [/left]
I suspect part of the problem is someone at DL clearing the GUC and re-issuing a ticket that close in, when the flight should be under KL control.
Sep 22, 2018, 1:49 pm
#43
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: SFO
Programs: DL Charter DM/DM/2MM, IHG Diamond Elite
Posts: 1,925
Sep 22, 2018, 1:54 pm
#44
Original Poster
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: HSV
Programs: Bellevue Lifetime Premiere Mega Elite Supreme
Posts: 1,509
The woman with the DL badge may well have been part of the problem (and trying to convince you to drop the matter) and may have been a KLM employee or both.
The purser's attitude/actions lend further support to the suspicion that KLM did something wrong here. Pursers aren't permitted to upgrade revenue passengers on board (with very few exceptions, such as a broken seat discovered in flight where there are safety issues and the only empty seat is in a higher cabin class) but they certainly do see the manifest which indicates nonrev status among other details.
The purser's attitude/actions lend further support to the suspicion that KLM did something wrong here. Pursers aren't permitted to upgrade revenue passengers on board (with very few exceptions, such as a broken seat discovered in flight where there are safety issues and the only empty seat is in a higher cabin class) but they certainly do see the manifest which indicates nonrev status among other details.
She’s been helpful and accommodating, so I don’t want to seem like I’m pushing it.
Sep 22, 2018, 1:59 pm
#45
Suspended
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: MEM
Programs: Starbucks Green Card
Posts: 5,431
I don't think it necessarily does any good, because whoever investigates this at HQ will certainly be able to tell.
I don't think it's uncouth to ask, though. And the purser might feel a little awkward but there's no reason it should be awkward (unless the purser is in on shena).
I don't think it's uncouth to ask, though. And the purser might feel a little awkward but there's no reason it should be awkward (unless the purser is in on shena).