Delta no longer booking domestic group travel
Sep 7, 2018, 1:11 am
#31
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This is no different than the business model for corporate discounts. DL requires an enrolled corporate TA to handle ticketing and the like. Why? It shifts the work burden to the TA who is paid by the business.
Group tickets, just like many corporate discounts, typically offer a feature which cannot be monetized in advance in the fare calculation, e.g., the ability to either change passengers up until some time shortly before departure or not even supply passenger names until that time. While it may be that some groups have fixed participation, in many, such as school teams and the like, there are substitutions and it is a real benefit to be able to do so without major penalties.
I also see a very real value in using a TA experienced in booking trips. Not only will many provide reduced fees if you do some of the legwork, but they can also be helpful in providing ancillary services such as ground transfers and finding unpublished rates at hotels. There can be savings far in excess of the fee.
As a final matter, having the TA collect payment takes a time and personal burden off the organizer. Sometimes the funds are already in a team or club account and payment is easy. But, on other occasions, each participant must step forward with payment. No better way to lose friends and cause resentment than becoming a collection agency.
Bottom line is that with other tinkering around the edges, UA and AA will follow suit soon enough.
Group tickets, just like many corporate discounts, typically offer a feature which cannot be monetized in advance in the fare calculation, e.g., the ability to either change passengers up until some time shortly before departure or not even supply passenger names until that time. While it may be that some groups have fixed participation, in many, such as school teams and the like, there are substitutions and it is a real benefit to be able to do so without major penalties.
I also see a very real value in using a TA experienced in booking trips. Not only will many provide reduced fees if you do some of the legwork, but they can also be helpful in providing ancillary services such as ground transfers and finding unpublished rates at hotels. There can be savings far in excess of the fee.
As a final matter, having the TA collect payment takes a time and personal burden off the organizer. Sometimes the funds are already in a team or club account and payment is easy. But, on other occasions, each participant must step forward with payment. No better way to lose friends and cause resentment than becoming a collection agency.
Bottom line is that with other tinkering around the edges, UA and AA will follow suit soon enough.
Second, I am perfectly capable of negotiating with hotels and their sales departments. I'm also pretty good at using best rate guarantees to bring down costs. I've got this.
Third, having the TA collect payment from our students would cause a real mess. We charge a set cost for the whole trip. That may include all sorts of things (airfare, rental cars, gas, meals, hotel, tournament entry and judge fees, activities, theatre tickets, parking, etc.). The last thing I want is for families to have to pay the TA for part of the trip (airfare, rental cars, hotel, some activities) and then pay the school an additional fee for the rest (tournament entry and judge fees, gas, parking, meals, their share of chaperone travel expenses, etc.). The families will be confused about whether they have paid for the trip, and I'll have to communicate with both the TA and my business office about billing. Sounds like a nightmare.
Sep 7, 2018, 1:27 am
#32
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I don't think DL is getting out of groups; rather, Delta is getting out of being the TA for groups. I actually agree with Delta on this one. As the previous poster mentioned, it would be better to go through a TA on something like this. When you talk about providing names later, changing names, etc. as described in your post, I would rather have one point of contact at a TA rather than calling into a central group line and getting a different rep each time.
Sep 7, 2018, 3:58 am
#33
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
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The reality is that not every business wants every customer. For whatever reason, Delta has decided that domestic groups aren't worth the effort (or the extra labor costs) to stay in the group travel business. Without access to proprietary information, none of us can know exactly why Delta made this decision. I also think it's unlikely that Delta will change their mind and reverse course.
Sep 7, 2018, 9:38 am
#34
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It's fine that you would rather use a TA. Nothing was or is stopping you from doing so. I, however, would prefer not to use a TA. I've been traveling with student groups for 35 years. I stopped using a TA 16 years ago when the airlines stopped paying commissions to TAs, and TAs starting tacking on a $25 surcharge for the tickets they issued. I would rather do the extra work than pay additional fees. If you look at my profile you'll see that I travel a lot. I think I've got this stuff figured out.
Are you sure the school has to sign a contract with a TA? For example, AAA has a relationship with Delta (at least in Michigan - I have used them before). If you or a colleague are a member, maybe they can assist you without a contract and/or a reduced fee.
Sep 7, 2018, 9:39 am
#35
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Do more, pay less. Airlines has in the last few decades, squashed the needs for travel agents by offering more online resources and providing less compensations, and now Delta is making them do more for segment of business Delta doesn't want.
Are there travel agents still in business, wanting this segment of service?
Jiburi
Are there travel agents still in business, wanting this segment of service?
Jiburi
Sep 7, 2018, 9:48 am
#36
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There had been a guy on FT, who participated in the DL forum and some of the hotel fora for example, who worked as a travel agent and either he or his entire agency specialized in group trips using discounts for charitable organizations and other nonprofits, including church missionary trips. I wonder whether he would be able/willing to do school group trips and related ticketing. I wish I could remember his username or other details, but I think he was located in the far (southern?) suburbs of MSP.
Sep 7, 2018, 12:55 pm
#37
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The reality is that not every business wants every customer. For whatever reason, Delta has decided that domestic groups aren't worth the effort (or the extra labor costs) to stay in the group travel business. Without access to proprietary information, none of us can know exactly why Delta made this decision. I also think it's unlikely that Delta will change their mind and reverse course.
Sep 7, 2018, 1:02 pm
#38
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I understand everything you are saying here and have mentioned in the previous posts. However, the airline industry has changed and you may need to change with it. Based on your previous posts Delta was $65 cheaper than Southwest, so even with a $25 TA fee (for example), you're still $40 ahead.
Are you sure the school has to sign a contract with a TA? For example, AAA has a relationship with Delta (at least in Michigan - I have used them before). If you or a colleague are a member, maybe they can assist you without a contract and/or a reduced fee.
Are you sure the school has to sign a contract with a TA? For example, AAA has a relationship with Delta (at least in Michigan - I have used them before). If you or a colleague are a member, maybe they can assist you without a contract and/or a reduced fee.
As to the cost, Delta used to charge a $25 per ticket phone ticketing fee on group tickets. I still booked groups with them when it was advantageous to do so. In this case, if we had a contract with a managed travel agency and they charged an additional $25 per ticket, I would opt for Southwest because once checked bag fees are added, Southwest is cheaper. Additionally, the Southwest flight is non-stop and Delta had stops.
Sep 7, 2018, 1:05 pm
#39
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There had been a guy on FT, who participated in the DL forum and some of the hotel fora for example, who worked as a travel agent and either he or his entire agency specialized in group trips using discounts for charitable organizations and other nonprofits, including church missionary trips. I wonder whether he would be able/willing to do school group trips and related ticketing. I wish I could remember his username or other details, but I think he was located in the far (southern?) suburbs of MSP.
At the same time, I think that there is a good chance that he does not meet Delta's new requirements for domestic groups. I imagine he can still use them for booking international trips.
Sep 7, 2018, 1:34 pm
#40
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I would be curious as to how many managed/"known" TAs and groups are out there vs the one off group bookings. I would also be curious as to how many groups said they need x amount of seats only to decrease to y at day of departure. Perhaps this was a revenue stop-loss?
International group bookings still exist because a lot of tour groups, especially from Asia are a bulk of their business. I've flown on many Asian routes where the seat map was completely empty, only to find out the flight was oversold. When I inquired about the loss of seats within 24 hours, many different agents told me there were one or two very large groups (100+ per) that just didn't have seats assigned to them.
That being said, since even December is still a long time away from February, the chances are having prices increase dramatically between now and December is improbable (unless it's around a holiday). Depending on how many people you have, you can always wait until you know who is going. If it makes you feel uncomfortable, I would look into another airline that still does this. I hate to say it, but if you don't take those seats, someone else will, and probably at a much higher rate per seat than if you were to receive a group discount.
International group bookings still exist because a lot of tour groups, especially from Asia are a bulk of their business. I've flown on many Asian routes where the seat map was completely empty, only to find out the flight was oversold. When I inquired about the loss of seats within 24 hours, many different agents told me there were one or two very large groups (100+ per) that just didn't have seats assigned to them.
That being said, since even December is still a long time away from February, the chances are having prices increase dramatically between now and December is improbable (unless it's around a holiday). Depending on how many people you have, you can always wait until you know who is going. If it makes you feel uncomfortable, I would look into another airline that still does this. I hate to say it, but if you don't take those seats, someone else will, and probably at a much higher rate per seat than if you were to receive a group discount.
Sep 7, 2018, 1:35 pm
#41
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Multiple problems here. First, they are requiring far more than a garden variety TA. School teams and community groups are simply not going to contract with travel management companies designed to meet the needs of businesses.
Second, I am perfectly capable of negotiating with hotels and their sales departments. I'm also pretty good at using best rate guarantees to bring down costs. I've got this.
Third, having the TA collect payment from our students would cause a real mess. We charge a set cost for the whole trip. That may include all sorts of things (airfare, rental cars, gas, meals, hotel, tournament entry and judge fees, activities, theatre tickets, parking, etc.). The last thing I want is for families to have to pay the TA for part of the trip (airfare, rental cars, hotel, some activities) and then pay the school an additional fee for the rest (tournament entry and judge fees, gas, parking, meals, their share of chaperone travel expenses, etc.). The families will be confused about whether they have paid for the trip, and I'll have to communicate with both the TA and my business office about billing. Sounds like a nightmare.
Second, I am perfectly capable of negotiating with hotels and their sales departments. I'm also pretty good at using best rate guarantees to bring down costs. I've got this.
Third, having the TA collect payment from our students would cause a real mess. We charge a set cost for the whole trip. That may include all sorts of things (airfare, rental cars, gas, meals, hotel, tournament entry and judge fees, activities, theatre tickets, parking, etc.). The last thing I want is for families to have to pay the TA for part of the trip (airfare, rental cars, hotel, some activities) and then pay the school an additional fee for the rest (tournament entry and judge fees, gas, parking, meals, their share of chaperone travel expenses, etc.). The families will be confused about whether they have paid for the trip, and I'll have to communicate with both the TA and my business office about billing. Sounds like a nightmare.
Perhaps other carriers have a different model or will change to DL's model soon enough.
Sep 7, 2018, 2:16 pm
#42
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Double check with AS regarding checked bags. I feel like they used to offer a free bag for group travel - this might still be the case.
Sep 7, 2018, 6:15 pm
#43
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I would be curious as to how many managed/"known" TAs and groups are out there vs the one off group bookings. I would also be curious as to how many groups said they need x amount of seats only to decrease to y at day of departure. Perhaps this was a revenue stop-loss?
Additionally, group tickets are never very much cheaper than regular tickets. The discount is usually 5% off of what the airline is charging individuals. They don't really have to discount at all. The key for groups id flexibility for name changes.
That being said, since even December is still a long time away from February, the chances are having prices increase dramatically between now and December is improbable (unless it's around a holiday). Depending on how many people you have, you can always wait until you know who is going.
Last edited by lexdevil; Sep 7, 2018 at 7:21 pm
Sep 7, 2018, 6:19 pm
#44
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Losing Delta is not a big problem for me, though it does limit my options for some destinations we return to every year. Happily Southwest has non-stops to SLC and ATL, so we can manage without Delta.
It will become a big problem for me and most other school and community groups if the other carriers follow suit.
Sep 8, 2018, 9:13 am
#45
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I think it is pretty clear that Delta has decided it can do without my business. I'm not insulted at all.
Losing Delta is not a big problem for me, though it does limit my options for some destinations we return to every year. Happily Southwest has non-stops to SLC and ATL, so we can manage without Delta.
It will become a big problem for me and most other school and community groups if the other carriers follow suit.
Losing Delta is not a big problem for me, though it does limit my options for some destinations we return to every year. Happily Southwest has non-stops to SLC and ATL, so we can manage without Delta.
It will become a big problem for me and most other school and community groups if the other carriers follow suit.
Air Canada has taken this even further and won't accept group requests for any destinations (including international travel) from anyone except for IATA-registered travel agencies.
I hope that helps,
bawm