Delta: “All international widebodies” to have Premium Select by 2021
#31
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: San Francisco, CA
Programs: DL PM/MM, Hilton Silver, SPG+, Hertz PC
Posts: 7,898
except that C+ is not really a separate cabin. If VS can have extra-legroom seats, I don't see why DL couldn't keep a few rows of C+.
As others have pointed out, not having C+ on long-range flights is a bad blow for all Medallions (DM only get a maximum of 4 GUC/year). In addition it is also a blow for "kettles" as they lose the option of paying a nominal sum to upgrade to a better seat.
#32
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 37
Yep, we're full-circle to traditional 3-class, just with different names.
#33
Join Date: Feb 2017
Programs: DL DM, UA Gold, Alaska MVP, Bonvoy (lol) Ambassador
Posts: 2,994
except that C+ is not really a separate cabin. If VS can have extra-legroom seats, I don't see why DL couldn't keep a few rows of C+.
As others have pointed out, not having C+ on long-range flights is a bad blow for all Medallions (DM only get a maximum of 4 GUC/year). In addition it is also a blow for "kettles" as they lose the option of paying a nominal sum to upgrade to a better seat.
As others have pointed out, not having C+ on long-range flights is a bad blow for all Medallions (DM only get a maximum of 4 GUC/year). In addition it is also a blow for "kettles" as they lose the option of paying a nominal sum to upgrade to a better seat.
If Delta kept Comfort+, Delta would have five options on international flights:
- Basic Economy
- Main Cabin
- Comfort+
- Premium Select
- Delta One
In addition, due to the high Medallion penetration on those seats, Delta probably loses money per square foot of space on them versus adding an extra row of regular Y seats.
Reality is that this is just another big devaluation of Medallion benefits. Aggressive FCM and Basic Economy was a big hit to Medallions (especially domestically), and this is another big hit (internationally). Combined with the shrinking D1 cabins and terrible b-class SkyMiles redemption, I don't really know what Medallion status really gets you.
In practice I get more benefits out of the United points and benefits I earn my UA Gold stauts and from my CSR than I do as a Diamond Medallion.
Last edited by ethernal; Jul 12, 2018 at 6:46 pm
#34
Join Date: Mar 2010
Programs: DL PM, Bonvoy Gold
Posts: 8,414
I get the frustration about C+ but I am personally VERY happy to see the expansion of true W class across the DL fleet and across multiple airlines. Remember that many of us have been asking for this for years. This is a win because this is a comfortable way to cross the ocean that many more people can actually afford.
To me C+ is just a coach seat and I can get the same thing from an exit row or bulk head. If they keep main cabin pitch at 31" and maybe 32" there's really no issue there.
My guess is that the next shoe to drop will be elimination of domestic F on short haul/medium haul routes and Euro style moveable wall J called C+ put in it's place.
To me C+ is just a coach seat and I can get the same thing from an exit row or bulk head. If they keep main cabin pitch at 31" and maybe 32" there's really no issue there.
My guess is that the next shoe to drop will be elimination of domestic F on short haul/medium haul routes and Euro style moveable wall J called C+ put in it's place.
#35
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: ATL
Posts: 637
This is about two things
One is revenue. There are many companies who will not pay for business class. This is why Delta started reducing the size of J cabins on many routes. However, there is the possibility those same companies might consider paying for W.
The second is consuming miles (and reducing DL's financial liability carrying those miles). There are plenty of business travelers who would use their miles to upgrade a company paid Y ticket to W.
An airline is entirely in the business of revenue management.
The second is consuming miles (and reducing DL's financial liability carrying those miles). There are plenty of business travelers who would use their miles to upgrade a company paid Y ticket to W.
An airline is entirely in the business of revenue management.
#36
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 23,014
except that C+ is not really a separate cabin. If VS can have extra-legroom seats, I don't see why DL couldn't keep a few rows of C+.
As others have pointed out, not having C+ on long-range flights is a bad blow for all Medallions (DM only get a maximum of 4 GUC/year). In addition it is also a blow for "kettles" as they lose the option of paying a nominal sum to upgrade to a better seat.
As others have pointed out, not having C+ on long-range flights is a bad blow for all Medallions (DM only get a maximum of 4 GUC/year). In addition it is also a blow for "kettles" as they lose the option of paying a nominal sum to upgrade to a better seat.
#37
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: MCO
Programs: DL PM, UA Silver, Marriott Titanium, Hertz Presidents Circle
Posts: 4,292
I get the frustration about C+ but I am personally VERY happy to see the expansion of true W class across the DL fleet and across multiple airlines. Remember that many of us have been asking for this for years. This is a win because this is a comfortable way to cross the ocean that many more people can actually afford.
To me C+ is just a coach seat and I can get the same thing from an exit row or bulk head. If they keep main cabin pitch at 31" and maybe 32" there's really no issue there.
My guess is that the next shoe to drop will be elimination of domestic F on short haul/medium haul routes and Euro style moveable wall J called C+ put in it's place.
To me C+ is just a coach seat and I can get the same thing from an exit row or bulk head. If they keep main cabin pitch at 31" and maybe 32" there's really no issue there.
My guess is that the next shoe to drop will be elimination of domestic F on short haul/medium haul routes and Euro style moveable wall J called C+ put in it's place.
#38
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: ATL
Programs: DL DM, Hyatt LT DM, Wyndham DM, Hertz PC, HH Gold, SPG Gold, Marriott Gold
Posts: 2,038
I really liked C+ on the long hauls. I haven't tried PS but for 100-200 each way I would do it. However I am seeing MUCH more than that on many routes that I have looked at. As others have said some business class offerings are cheaper or similar priced. So what is the point of the PS?
#39
Join Date: Feb 2017
Programs: DL DM, UA Gold, Alaska MVP, Bonvoy (lol) Ambassador
Posts: 2,994
My guess is that the next shoe to drop will be elimination of domestic F on short haul/medium haul routes and Euro style moveable wall J called C+ put in it's place.
#40
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Mostly living in the basement
Programs: Newly minted free agent; MR LT(!)TE, HH SE, BA SECM, DL MM, UA PS, 2V Fanboi, CBP GE
Posts: 5,106
If Delta kept Comfort+, Delta would have five options on international flights:
- Basic Economy
- Main Cabin
- Comfort+
- Premium Select
- Delta One
JV Partner AF has six options on international flights: Economy (fee for seat selection), Economy Flex (includes seat selection), Seat Plus/Duo/etc (Economy fare + fee for "good" seats), Premium Economy, Business, and La Premiere.
If DL doesn't offer C+, it because the incremental income they expect doesn't justify the cost.
One is revenue. There are many companies who will not pay for business class. This is why Delta started reducing the size of J cabins on many routes. However, there is the possibility those same companies might consider paying for W.
The second is consuming miles (and reducing DL's financial liability carrying those miles). There are plenty of business travelers who would use their miles to upgrade a company paid Y ticket to W.
An airline is entirely in the business of revenue management.
The second is consuming miles (and reducing DL's financial liability carrying those miles). There are plenty of business travelers who would use their miles to upgrade a company paid Y ticket to W.
An airline is entirely in the business of revenue management.
#41
Join Date: Mar 2010
Programs: DL PM, Bonvoy Gold
Posts: 8,414
C+ is just not nice enough to really justify $100+ each way over coach pricing for most people, so my guess is that's it's mostly a free giveaway to PM/DM's and not a great revenue generator because at the end of the day it's just a coach seat that most are not willing to pay extra to sit in.
My spouse works for a tech startup and because the company is not yet profitable, the travel policy is rather economical, and does not permit J class travel regardless of trip length except for C-suite execs. However, I can absolutely see them permitting permitting W travel for overseas trips as a reasonable compromise.
Last edited by jdrtravel; Jul 13, 2018 at 12:17 am
#42
Join Date: Feb 2017
Programs: DL DM, UA Gold, Alaska MVP, Bonvoy (lol) Ambassador
Posts: 2,994
JV Partner VS has five options on international flights: Economy Light (BE), Economy Classic (MC), Economy Delight (Y+), Premium Economy (PS), and Upper Class (D1).
JV Partner AF has six options on international flights: Economy (fee for seat selection), Economy Flex (includes seat selection), Seat Plus/Duo/etc (Economy fare + fee for "good" seats), Premium Economy, Business, and La Premiere.
JV Partner AF has six options on international flights: Economy (fee for seat selection), Economy Flex (includes seat selection), Seat Plus/Duo/etc (Economy fare + fee for "good" seats), Premium Economy, Business, and La Premiere.
If DL doesn't offer C+, it because the incremental income they expect doesn't justify the cost.
Originally Posted by jdrtravel
C+ is just not nice enough to really justify $100+ each way over coach pricing for most people, so my guess is that's it's mostly a free giveaway to PM/DM's and not a great revenue generator because at the end of the day it's just a coach seat that most are not willing to pay extra to sit in.
Originally Posted by jdrtravel
If you are comparing the price of PS to highly discounted advanced purchase fares than yes, it's going to be a lot more. But I don't think the target customer is someone who is buying $600 TATL tickets 4 months in advance of travel. Rather, I think the target customer is someone who can spend $1800-$2200 instead of $1400 for a business trip. It's just not going to, on any regular basis, be just 100-200 more each way. That's C+ pricing. Remember, this is a product that is essentially the same as domestic F.
#43
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: VA
Programs: DL GM
Posts: 154
Bummer. They could really personalize everyone's preferred experience if C+ is offered. There are some people who are willing to pay for more legroom, but not pay for PS.
However, if they do offer PS on all their international routes, it would make me want to actually use DL more because it's the minimum product I would consider for international flights.
However, if they do offer PS on all their international routes, it would make me want to actually use DL more because it's the minimum product I would consider for international flights.
Keith
#44
Join Date: Mar 2010
Programs: DL PM, Bonvoy Gold
Posts: 8,414
It's hard to say that this product is Domestic F - it would require significantly greater seat width to call it an F-equivalent. From a cost profile perspective, PS only costs 36% more plane square footage to Delta than a Y seat while an F seat costs Delta 85% more plane square footage. PS is equivalent to a 3-2 arrangement on a 3-3 narrowbody. If they've convinced you the two seats are equivalent, they've done a bang up marketing job.
#45
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: PDX
Programs: DL DM, AS MVP 100K, Amtrak peon, Colbert Lifetime Platinum
Posts: 4,534
Well, you're only talking about the A350 here. We don't know exactly what the width will be on the 777 or other a/c, and remember they are now using the domestic F 757 cabin for some TATL PS flights, and I would expect to see more of this. It's true that A350 PS width of 18.5"-19" is 1.5"-2" less width than domestic F, but I'm not sure if that is as "significant" as you claim (though I would certainly prefer 21"). Also remember that the A350 and other wide-body PS seats coming online will have a leg-rest which domestic F does not. In all other ways they are basically the same product.