End on End Fare Question

Old Jun 27, 18, 9:41 am
  #1  
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End on End Fare Question

I have a question about an end on end fare. I've looked through the fare rules and cannot understand them as they seem to be contradictory, but to be honest I'm not really sure what I'm looking for. The fare rules in Section 10 for both flights are the same. If it matters, I have a specific reason, which I can document if asked, to be in LAS on both Sunday and Tuesday, as well as in LAX on Monday. Here's my itinerary:
RT 1 - JFK-LAS - July 15 (sun) - July 18 (wed)
RT 2 - LAS-LAX - July 15 (sun) - July 17 (tue)

10.COMBINATIONS
DOUBLE OPEN JAWS NOT PERMITTED.
END-ON-END
END-ON-END COMBINATIONS PERMITTED. VALIDATE ALL FARE
COMBINATIONS.
PROVIDED -
COMBINATIONS ARE FOR CARRIER DL/AF/KL/AZ/VA/ZK
OR FOR CARRIER VS.
OPEN JAWS/2-COMPONENT CIRCLE TRIPS/MULTI-COMPONENT
CIRCLE TRIPS
FARES MAY BE COMBINED ON A HALF ROUND TRIP BASIS
WITH DL FARES WITH ANY FARE FOR ANY CARRIER IN ANY
RULE AND TARIFF.
-TO FORM SINGLE OPEN JAWS
A MAXIMUM OF 2 FARE COMPONENTS PERMITTED. MILEAGE
OF THE OPEN SEGMENT MUST BE EQUAL/LESS THAN MILEAGE
OF THE SHORTEST FLOWN FARE COMPONENT.
-TO FORM 2-COMPONENT CIRCLE TRIPS
-TO FORM MULTI-COMPONENT CIRCLE TRIPS WITH DL FARES
A MAXIMUM OF 2 FARE BREAK POINTS PERMITTED.
END-ON-END
END-ON-END COMBINATIONS PERMITTED WITH FARES FROM/TO
LWB/FROM/TO MEI/FROM/TO MSL/FROM/TO PIB/FROM/TO TUP/
FROM/TO GLH/FROM/TO MCN/FROM/TO BIL. VALIDATE ALL
FARE COMPONENTS. SIDE TRIPS NOT PERMITTED.
PROVIDED -
COMBINATIONS ARE FOR CARRIER DL/WP/3M.
NOTE - THE CITY PAIRS BELOW ARE CONSIDERED THE SAME
POINT -
BWI-WAS FLL-MIA LAX-BUR LAX-ONT LAX-SNA
NYC-EWR OAK-SFO OAK-SJC SFO-SJC
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Old Jun 27, 18, 10:02 am
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This is not really end-on-end. LAS-LAX is a side trip which is not permitted in the fare rules above. Not really sure what your exact question is here. You can purchase the two fares on separate tickets, you just can't combine the two fares on a single ticket due to side trip prohibition. There's no rule violation buying as separate tickets as you are not attempting to circumvent min-stay, Saturday night stay rules.

Last edited by LBJ; Jun 27, 18 at 10:26 am
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Old Jun 27, 18, 10:29 am
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Thanks, it does say side trips are not permitted in the second part of the end on end disqualifications. It doesn't say that in the first part. Is there a difference between those two? They seem to be structured the same, with some minor differences, and notably the carriers are different in the first (DL/AF/KL/AZ/VA/ZK or VS) vs second (DL/WP/3M).
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Old Jun 27, 18, 10:35 am
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Again, I really don't understand what you are asking here. I don't know why you think it is important to document where you need to be. There's no problem with booking these two fares on separate tickets. You just can't combine the two fares on a single ticket and it doesn't matter what you rationale is for this itin. Are you wanting to book these on a single ticket for additional IRROP protection or something? There's no price savings to booking on a single ticket.
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Old Jun 27, 18, 10:40 am
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Originally Posted by LBJ View Post
Again, I really don't understand what you are asking here. I don't know why you think it is important to document where you need to be. There's no problem with booking these two fares on separate tickets. You just can't combine the two fares on a single ticket and it doesn't matter what you rationale is for this itin.
Perfect, thanks, this is what I was looking for. I misunderstood your earlier post as saying the booking wasn't allowed at all. Still don't follow how the actual fare rules work, but as long as this is allowed on two separate round trips it doesn't really matter.
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Old Jun 27, 18, 1:04 pm
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Unless you have something to do in LAS on the 15th and your flight to LAX is much later, wouldn't it make more sence to fly JFK/LAX and then open jaw LAS/JFK with a super cheap OW for the LAX/LAS?
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Old Jun 27, 18, 2:10 pm
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I do have something in LAS on Sunday. Technically I'm supposed to be in LAS on Monday as well, but a more important thing came up in LA.

Also, my company doesn't allow alternate destination airports (arrival/departure) >75 miles apart without approval (forgot how they word it, they don't say "open jaw" but they provide an example and it isn't allowed). I can't imagine why, but that's their rule.

Last edited by jetsfan92588; Jun 27, 18 at 5:32 pm
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Old Jun 28, 18, 12:38 am
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Originally Posted by jetsfan92588 View Post
I do have something in LAS on Sunday. Technically I'm supposed to be in LAS on Monday as well, but a more important thing came up in LA.

Also, my company doesn't allow alternate destination airports (arrival/departure) >75 miles apart without approval (forgot how they word it, they don't say "open jaw" but they provide an example and it isn't allowed). I can't imagine why, but that's their rule.
An open jaw is very different from the use of an alternative airport.
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Old Jun 28, 18, 6:50 am
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Originally Posted by MSPeconomist View Post
An open jaw is very different from the use of an alternative airport.
I agree, I'm not the one who wrote the policy, but while they say "alternative airport" and don't use the term "open jaw" the example they provide as an itinerary requiring approval is very clearly an open jaw itinerary.
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Old Jun 28, 18, 6:57 am
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Of course this is allowed. If your completely independent "side trip" were booked with another airline not related to DL they would not even know about it... so why would DL deprive themselves of your business?
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Old Jun 28, 18, 8:06 am
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Originally Posted by NotHamSarnie View Post
Of course this is allowed. If your completely independent "side trip" were booked with another airline not related to DL they would not even know about it... so why would DL deprive themselves of your business?
I think OP mean his job doesn't allow it, not the rules of the ticket...it sounds like OP has a need to be in LAX that is separate from work (Or at least separate from the reason OP is being sent to LAS), but is trying to make sure both the personal and professional obligations are met, but at the lowest price!
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Old Jun 28, 18, 11:14 am
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My job doesn't allow the following itinerary, which was recommended upthread, if bbb and ccc are more than 75 miles apart:
aaa-bbb
ccc-aaa

My job does allow the itinerary proposed in the OP but I was concerned about violating faring rules because apparently the travel agent has canceled tickets in the past for people whose itineraries violate ticketing rules. Whenever we have any sort of overlapping travel reservations we have to check a box in the system saying we've reviewed the fare rules and the overlapping itineraries don't violate the rules. Of course, if you call the travel agent they have no idea, and will only give an answer if you book it over the phone with them (different department), which results in a significantly higher fee, which requires approval to be reimbursed.

As for why DL wouldn't want the revenue I have no idea. But the RT from ny-la is significantly more expensive than these two RTs so I see it as at least a possibility that it violates a rule.
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Old Jun 28, 18, 2:36 pm
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Originally Posted by jetsfan92588 View Post
My job doesn't allow the following itinerary, which was recommended upthread, if bbb and ccc are more than 75 miles apart:
aaa-bbb
ccc-aaa

My job does allow the itinerary proposed in the OP but I was concerned about violating faring rules because apparently the travel agent has canceled tickets in the past for people whose itineraries violate ticketing rules. Whenever we have any sort of overlapping travel reservations we have to check a box in the system saying we've reviewed the fare rules and the overlapping itineraries don't violate the rules. Of course, if you call the travel agent they have no idea, and will only give an answer if you book it over the phone with them (different department), which results in a significantly higher fee, which requires approval to be reimbursed.

As for why DL wouldn't want the revenue I have no idea. But the RT from ny-la is significantly more expensive than these two RTs so I see it as at least a possibility that it violates a rule.
The issue the airline would have is if you used ticket 2, to turn around and go straight back to where you came from, and thus avoid length of stay, sat. Night stay, etc restrictions. They could care less otherwise.

The end on end restriction is designed to try and keep pricing based on origin/destination. Otherwise people started booking a broken fare using whatever fares give you cheapest ticket. Back in college I'd frequently book GFK-MSP-LAX/LAX-MSP-SAT RT. Did it because combined fare GFK-LAX and LAX-SAT was cheaper than GFK-SAT fare. To do that with an end on end restriction would mean needing to book 2 tickets. This normally would mean no bags checked through, no IRROPS protection, etc between tickets, etc. DL by policy still provides all that when on separate tickets.

Unfortunately, the computer can't easily tell if what you're doing is to try and cheat o/d pricing or because have need to fly to those places.

Last edited by flyerCO; Jun 28, 18 at 2:47 pm
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Old Aug 26, 18, 8:58 am
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Update, I'm being accused of violating the back-to-back ticketing rules, and thus not qualifying for a promotion. When I asked about what minimum stay requirement I'm supposed to have violated I'm being told that the decision by the Skymiles team is final (i.e., they are not going to provide me with their reason for determining that a minimum stay requirement was violated).
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Old Aug 26, 18, 9:13 am
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Originally Posted by jetsfan92588 View Post
Update, I'm being accused of violating the back-to-back ticketing rules, and thus not qualifying for a promotion. When I asked about what minimum stay requirement I'm supposed to have violated I'm being told that the decision by the Skymiles team is final (i.e., they are not going to provide me with their reason for determining that a minimum stay requirement was violated).
What promotion? This is the first have mentioned it.
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