Delta bans pitbulls as ESA and proposed solution
Jun 22, 2018, 2:19 pm
#61
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The issue I see with ESA is not that they allow them. It's that they wave security and safety requirements for them. An unsecured animal of any size can turn into a huge danger on am airplane. Even the nicest and most well behaved dog of a non aggressive breed might flip and bite after getting thrown around by turbulence.
There us a reason lap dogs need carriers to board a plane. All animals need to be secured in the cabin in a carrier if they are too large for a carrier buying them a seat and using a dog seat belt harness connected to the seat at the very least should be an FAA requirement. There are dozens of rules and regulations on keeping people and animals secured on board and if they regulated that for service animals and ESA animals at the owners expense (maybe with waivers for real service dogs) people would probably stop taking ESA animals or faking their dog is one. Add a rule about muzzles ( there are types of muzzles that would allow a medical alert dog to alert and drink and eat (at least eat treats) And ask the crew or your neighbors to pick things up instead of making the dog do it during the trip
I wouldn't make it breed or even species related I'd make rules about safety. People can cry discrimination but we also don't let unsecured humans fly.
I've seen one pic of an ESA pony. Do you know the kind of weight behind that and the amount of damage the hooves could do to humans should the animal panic or get thrown around in the cabin due to turbulence.
Just banning breed specific as they are doing now is asking for a law suite though
It's also true that there are breeds way more aggressive than pits or bull type of dogs. Dog fighting has really messed up things for those breeds they used to be affectionately called nanny dogs because they had a calm and even temper.
The most aggressive dogs I know are actually mostly tiny so they don't cause so much damage especially dachshunds (bred to take on badgers in the den) and chihuahuas are pretty bad. Also pomeranians as the German spitz was a guard dog for farm houses and yards originally
There us a reason lap dogs need carriers to board a plane. All animals need to be secured in the cabin in a carrier if they are too large for a carrier buying them a seat and using a dog seat belt harness connected to the seat at the very least should be an FAA requirement. There are dozens of rules and regulations on keeping people and animals secured on board and if they regulated that for service animals and ESA animals at the owners expense (maybe with waivers for real service dogs) people would probably stop taking ESA animals or faking their dog is one. Add a rule about muzzles ( there are types of muzzles that would allow a medical alert dog to alert and drink and eat (at least eat treats) And ask the crew or your neighbors to pick things up instead of making the dog do it during the trip
I wouldn't make it breed or even species related I'd make rules about safety. People can cry discrimination but we also don't let unsecured humans fly.
I've seen one pic of an ESA pony. Do you know the kind of weight behind that and the amount of damage the hooves could do to humans should the animal panic or get thrown around in the cabin due to turbulence.
Just banning breed specific as they are doing now is asking for a law suite though
It's also true that there are breeds way more aggressive than pits or bull type of dogs. Dog fighting has really messed up things for those breeds they used to be affectionately called nanny dogs because they had a calm and even temper.
The most aggressive dogs I know are actually mostly tiny so they don't cause so much damage especially dachshunds (bred to take on badgers in the den) and chihuahuas are pretty bad. Also pomeranians as the German spitz was a guard dog for farm houses and yards originally
Jun 22, 2018, 2:31 pm
#62
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The issue I see with ESA is not that they allow them. It's that they wave security and safety requirements for them. An unsecured animal of any size can turn into a huge danger on am airplane. Even the nicest and most well behaved dog of a non aggressive breed might flip and bite after getting thrown around by turbulence.
There us a reason lap dogs need carriers to board a plane. All animals need to be secured in the cabin in a carrier if they are too large for a carrier buying them a seat and using a dog seat belt harness connected to the seat at the very least should be an FAA requirement. There are dozens of rules and regulations on keeping people and animals secured on board and if they regulated that for service animals and ESA animals at the owners expense (maybe with waivers for real service dogs) people would probably stop taking ESA animals or faking their dog is one. Add a rule about muzzles ( there are types of muzzles that would allow a medical alert dog to alert and drink and eat (at least eat treats) And ask the crew or your neighbors to pick things up instead of making the dog do it during the trip
I wouldn't make it breed or even species related I'd make rules about safety. People can cry discrimination but we also don't let unsecured humans fly.
I've seen one pic of an ESA pony. Do you know the kind of weight behind that and the amount of damage the hooves could do to humans should the animal panic or get thrown around in the cabin due to turbulence.
Just banning breed specific as they are doing now is asking for a law suite though
It's also true that there are breeds way more aggressive than pits or bull type of dogs. Dog fighting has really messed up things for those breeds they used to be affectionately called nanny dogs because they had a calm and even temper.
The most aggressive dogs I know are actually mostly tiny so they don't cause so much damage especially dachshunds (bred to take on badgers in the den) and chihuahuas are pretty bad. Also pomeranians as the German spitz was a guard dog for farm houses and yards originally
There us a reason lap dogs need carriers to board a plane. All animals need to be secured in the cabin in a carrier if they are too large for a carrier buying them a seat and using a dog seat belt harness connected to the seat at the very least should be an FAA requirement. There are dozens of rules and regulations on keeping people and animals secured on board and if they regulated that for service animals and ESA animals at the owners expense (maybe with waivers for real service dogs) people would probably stop taking ESA animals or faking their dog is one. Add a rule about muzzles ( there are types of muzzles that would allow a medical alert dog to alert and drink and eat (at least eat treats) And ask the crew or your neighbors to pick things up instead of making the dog do it during the trip
I wouldn't make it breed or even species related I'd make rules about safety. People can cry discrimination but we also don't let unsecured humans fly.
I've seen one pic of an ESA pony. Do you know the kind of weight behind that and the amount of damage the hooves could do to humans should the animal panic or get thrown around in the cabin due to turbulence.
Just banning breed specific as they are doing now is asking for a law suite though
It's also true that there are breeds way more aggressive than pits or bull type of dogs. Dog fighting has really messed up things for those breeds they used to be affectionately called nanny dogs because they had a calm and even temper.
The most aggressive dogs I know are actually mostly tiny so they don't cause so much damage especially dachshunds (bred to take on badgers in the den) and chihuahuas are pretty bad. Also pomeranians as the German spitz was a guard dog for farm houses and yards originally
Jun 22, 2018, 2:38 pm
#63
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There has been a lot of banter here about service animals and ESAs as well. This link provides a great summary of the requirments, applicable laws, etc. In short, ESAs are not protected under the ADA (though some states may have enacted their own laws) and ESAs thus have no training requirements. They are nothing more than "security blankets", IMO.
These threads would go away if ESAs were not allowed on planes!
https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/service_animal_qa.html
These threads would go away if ESAs were not allowed on planes!
https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/service_animal_qa.html
Airlines are governed by the air carrier access act
Jun 22, 2018, 2:38 pm
#64
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There has been a lot of banter here about service animals and ESAs as well. This link provides a great summary of the requirments, applicable laws, etc. In short, ESAs are not protected under the ADA (though some states may have enacted their own laws) and ESAs thus have no training requirements. They are nothing more than "security blankets", IMO.
These threads would go away if ESAs were not allowed on planes!
https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/service_animal_qa.html
Oh, and look at the last question (37)- can't wait for the comments to roll in!!!
These threads would go away if ESAs were not allowed on planes!
https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/service_animal_qa.html
Oh, and look at the last question (37)- can't wait for the comments to roll in!!!
Jun 22, 2018, 2:55 pm
#65
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Good for Delta. If this further reduces abuse of the ESA system by those who seek a medical diagnosis under the motivation of saving money while traveling by bringing their pet in cabin for free, terrific.
Not sure how you can prove something is a pitbull, but that's for Delta's team to handle, and they seem ready to take a more aggressive stance against the consequences of abuse.
Wonder when someone will find a way to clean up the 'dealers' in this situation - the online medical diagnosis mills.
https://esadoctors.com/
Ultimately the law would have to be changed for real difference so people with the most needs don't deal with the backlash of those who abuse.
Not sure how you can prove something is a pitbull, but that's for Delta's team to handle, and they seem ready to take a more aggressive stance against the consequences of abuse.
Wonder when someone will find a way to clean up the 'dealers' in this situation - the online medical diagnosis mills.
https://esadoctors.com/
Ultimately the law would have to be changed for real difference so people with the most needs don't deal with the backlash of those who abuse.
It's just not airlines where people abuse ESA's. Landlords also have to put up with it. People have their pets certified as ESA's to get around the no-pet restrictions or are too cheap to pay the $25 to $50 a month some landlords charge for pets.
While I always pay the fee to transport my pets when I have to fly with them (and there are times people need to fly with their pet and driving just isn't viable), if airlines didn't charge such an absurd fee ($150 each way) and charged a more reasonable fee of like $50 I think you would see a lot less abuse.
Jun 22, 2018, 3:03 pm
#66
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Doctors don't certify animals as ESAs. A practitioner determines that a patient would benefit from an ESA, but doesn't necessarily participate in the selection of the animal. Some might recommend a particular type of animal but it's certainly beyond any requirements.
Jun 22, 2018, 4:35 pm
#67
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Jun 22, 2018, 4:40 pm
#68
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A doctor shouldn't be allowed to certify an animal as ESA if they have never seen the patient. Those places remind me of the mail orders places where a doctor would prescribe things like Viagra with an online diagnosis and allow a mail order of a prescription without ever seeing a patient.
It's just not airlines where people abuse ESA's. Landlords also have to put up with it. People have their pets certified as ESA's to get around the no-pet restrictions or are too cheap to pay the $25 to $50 a month some landlords charge for pets.
.
It's just not airlines where people abuse ESA's. Landlords also have to put up with it. People have their pets certified as ESA's to get around the no-pet restrictions or are too cheap to pay the $25 to $50 a month some landlords charge for pets.
.
Jun 22, 2018, 6:11 pm
#69
Join Date: Mar 2016
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Here is some information from humanesociety.org. There are about a zillion search results on Google, but this feels more like a neutral source than some of the others.
The Fair Housing Act (FHA) is a federal law that prevents discrimination against tenants in their homes.
Under the FHA, a disability is defined as a physical or mental impairment which significantly limits a person’s major life activities. Even if a lease says "no pets" or restricts pets, landlords are required to make what is called a “reasonable accommodation” to allow pets who serve as assistance animals, which includes animals who provide emotional support.
Assistance animals are in a different legal classification than pets who are not assistance animals, which is why pet restrictions and fees are waived for them. They are animals that work, assist and/or perform tasks and services for the benefit of a person with a disability or provide emotional support that improves the symptoms of a disability.
There is no official certification or training for assistance animals, and they can assist in a wide variety of ways. Breed and weight restrictions do not apply to assistance or service animals.
Under the FHA, a disability is defined as a physical or mental impairment which significantly limits a person’s major life activities. Even if a lease says "no pets" or restricts pets, landlords are required to make what is called a “reasonable accommodation” to allow pets who serve as assistance animals, which includes animals who provide emotional support.
Assistance animals are in a different legal classification than pets who are not assistance animals, which is why pet restrictions and fees are waived for them. They are animals that work, assist and/or perform tasks and services for the benefit of a person with a disability or provide emotional support that improves the symptoms of a disability.
There is no official certification or training for assistance animals, and they can assist in a wide variety of ways. Breed and weight restrictions do not apply to assistance or service animals.
Last edited by Qwkynuf; Jun 22, 2018 at 6:18 pm
Jun 22, 2018, 7:00 pm
#70
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As the owner of a pit/boxer mix who is easily the sweetest, gentlest dog you could ever come across... I'm perfectly fine with this. Not because of the perceived temperament issues with certain pit bulls, but because it is a pretty large breed of animal and ALL large breed animals, regardless of the level of emotional support they provide, have no place in an airplane cabin.
I was on a flight not long ago where there was a German shepherd ESA. The dog was massive and forced to sit between its owners legs in an aisle C+ seat, eventually settling for a half sit half lean with most of its body in the aisle. FA said nothing except for when the cart had to come through. It was the cutest dog that couldn't stop smiling at all the other passengers, but there is no way that dog was particularly comfortable and happy smashed in that small of a space and in the event there was some sort of emergency necessitating evacuation on that flight, I'm certain there would have been some issues.
ESAs in general have no business being on airplanes, but ANY large breed absolutely should not be. It could be the most well behaved dog in the world and that would still be true. Surely there is a point where it becomes a potential evacuation hazard.
Unfortunately this is not true everywhere. As the owner of rental properties in Florida, I am allowed to ban ESAs BUT I am not allowed to ask for documentation. I can ask if it is a service dog, I can ask if it is required for a disability and I can ask what the animal is trained to perform but I can't ask for any documentation and I can't ask about the disability. Meaning people with ESAs can (and do) simply state their dog is a service animal and I can't do anything about it unless the animal misbehaves or is otherwise causing issues.
In general, the laws regarding ESAs and service animals could use some more detail because there is a lot of ambiguity which is bad for both those in need of the animal and landlords, airlines, restaurants, stores, etc.
I was on a flight not long ago where there was a German shepherd ESA. The dog was massive and forced to sit between its owners legs in an aisle C+ seat, eventually settling for a half sit half lean with most of its body in the aisle. FA said nothing except for when the cart had to come through. It was the cutest dog that couldn't stop smiling at all the other passengers, but there is no way that dog was particularly comfortable and happy smashed in that small of a space and in the event there was some sort of emergency necessitating evacuation on that flight, I'm certain there would have been some issues.
ESAs in general have no business being on airplanes, but ANY large breed absolutely should not be. It could be the most well behaved dog in the world and that would still be true. Surely there is a point where it becomes a potential evacuation hazard.
In general, the laws regarding ESAs and service animals could use some more detail because there is a lot of ambiguity which is bad for both those in need of the animal and landlords, airlines, restaurants, stores, etc.
Jun 22, 2018, 8:11 pm
#71
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as someone who loves dogs dearly but who was severely bitten by a neighborhood American Pit Bull (who I’ve known own for 6 years), my attitude has changed and I no longer consider this breed to be a logical pet breed for being around people. Here’s some interesting statistics to showcase what these animals are like in light of their other brethren.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/19644273/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/19644273/
Jun 22, 2018, 8:29 pm
#72
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The issue I see with ESA is not that they allow them. It's that they wave security and safety requirements for them. An unsecured animal of any size can turn into a huge danger on am airplane. Even the nicest and most well behaved dog of a non aggressive breed might flip and bite after getting thrown around by turbulence.
There us a reason lap dogs need carriers to board a plane. All animals need to be secured in the cabin in a carrier if they are too large for a carrier buying them a seat and using a dog seat belt harness connected to the seat at the very least should be an FAA requirement. There are dozens of rules and regulations on keeping people and animals secured on board and if they regulated that for service animals and ESA animals at the owners expense (maybe with waivers for real service dogs) people would probably stop taking ESA animals or faking their dog is one. Add a rule about muzzles ( there are types of muzzles that would allow a medical alert dog to alert and drink and eat (at least eat treats) And ask the crew or your neighbors to pick things up instead of making the dog do it during the trip
I wouldn't make it breed or even species related I'd make rules about safety. People can cry discrimination but we also don't let unsecured humans fly.
I've seen one pic of an ESA pony. Do you know the kind of weight behind that and the amount of damage the hooves could do to humans should the animal panic or get thrown around in the cabin due to turbulence.
Just banning breed specific as they are doing now is asking for a law suite though
It's also true that there are breeds way more aggressive than pits or bull type of dogs. Dog fighting has really messed up things for those breeds they used to be affectionately called nanny dogs because they had a calm and even temper.
The most aggressive dogs I know are actually mostly tiny so they don't cause so much damage especially dachshunds (bred to take on badgers in the den) and chihuahuas are pretty bad. Also pomeranians as the German spitz was a guard dog for farm houses and yards originally
There us a reason lap dogs need carriers to board a plane. All animals need to be secured in the cabin in a carrier if they are too large for a carrier buying them a seat and using a dog seat belt harness connected to the seat at the very least should be an FAA requirement. There are dozens of rules and regulations on keeping people and animals secured on board and if they regulated that for service animals and ESA animals at the owners expense (maybe with waivers for real service dogs) people would probably stop taking ESA animals or faking their dog is one. Add a rule about muzzles ( there are types of muzzles that would allow a medical alert dog to alert and drink and eat (at least eat treats) And ask the crew or your neighbors to pick things up instead of making the dog do it during the trip
I wouldn't make it breed or even species related I'd make rules about safety. People can cry discrimination but we also don't let unsecured humans fly.
I've seen one pic of an ESA pony. Do you know the kind of weight behind that and the amount of damage the hooves could do to humans should the animal panic or get thrown around in the cabin due to turbulence.
Just banning breed specific as they are doing now is asking for a law suite though
It's also true that there are breeds way more aggressive than pits or bull type of dogs. Dog fighting has really messed up things for those breeds they used to be affectionately called nanny dogs because they had a calm and even temper.
The most aggressive dogs I know are actually mostly tiny so they don't cause so much damage especially dachshunds (bred to take on badgers in the den) and chihuahuas are pretty bad. Also pomeranians as the German spitz was a guard dog for farm houses and yards originally
Jun 22, 2018, 8:40 pm
#73
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as someone who loves dogs dearly but who was severely bitten by a neighborhood American Pit Bull (who I’ve known own for 6 years), my attitude has changed and I no longer consider this breed to be a logical pet breed for being around people. Here’s some interesting statistics to showcase what these animals are like in light of their other brethren.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/19644273/
Jun 22, 2018, 11:34 pm
#74
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Delta Bans Pit Bulls as Service Dogs, Sparks Backlash
Jun 23, 2018, 10:44 am
#75
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There has been a lot of banter here about service animals and ESAs as well. This link provides a great summary of the requirments, applicable laws, etc. In short, ESAs are not protected under the ADA (though some states may have enacted their own laws) and ESAs thus have no training requirements. They are nothing more than "security blankets", IMO.
These threads would go away if ESAs were not allowed on planes!
https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/service_animal_qa.html
These threads would go away if ESAs were not allowed on planes!
https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/service_animal_qa.html