Delta won't refund Amex MR miles to Amex. What to do?
Jun 18, 2018, 6:52 pm
#46
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 17
Air China awards not on UA.com (on & off issues), cancelled tkts and other issues
don't know how active/ongoing an issue it is (RealHJ's comments suggest the situation may have been addressed)
don't know how active/ongoing an issue it is (RealHJ's comments suggest the situation may have been addressed)
I'm not sure you guys are really understanding the actual technical process that happens here...
The idea that it is Delta's fault that a partner is incorrectly reporting availability is ridiculous. Delta is not reporting that there is availability, CZ is. What, exactly, do you want Delta to do? Pull all CZ flights? Pull all mainland Chinese flights?
The idea that it is Delta's fault that a partner is incorrectly reporting availability is ridiculous. Delta is not reporting that there is availability, CZ is. What, exactly, do you want Delta to do? Pull all CZ flights? Pull all mainland Chinese flights?
Delta is the one REPORTING fake news without verification
It is a fact that Delta checks the actual availability during payment. However this actual check does NOT update their main search results. So person 1 tries to book a seat, Delta does their actual check, finds out its not available and tells person 1. 5 seconds later a different person does the same search, Delta AGAIN INTENTIONALLY AND MALICIOUSLY tells this new customer the seat IS available even when they know for a fact that it is NOT.
There is absolutely NOTHING technically difficult about this. All Delta has to do is verify the actual availability on the search (choose a date page) page instead of the payment page. Delta's refusal is absolutely intentional and malicious. This is no different from Amazon or Walmart.com's stock status!
Jun 18, 2018, 7:34 pm
#47
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,746
It is not Delta's fault that the Chinese carriers report flights as available which are not.
It is Delta's fault that it does not disclose this fact prominently to its customers. All Delta needs to do is that when delta.com is shows award availability on one of these suspect airlines, is say that the flights may not be available as shown, the reservation is treated as a reservation request for this airline, and the reservation is not actually final until 72 hours have passed.
It is Delta's fault that it does not disclose this fact prominently to its customers. All Delta needs to do is that when delta.com is shows award availability on one of these suspect airlines, is say that the flights may not be available as shown, the reservation is treated as a reservation request for this airline, and the reservation is not actually final until 72 hours have passed.
Jun 18, 2018, 9:03 pm
#48
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 2003
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It is not Delta's fault that the Chinese carriers report flights as available which are not.
It is Delta's fault that it does not disclose this fact prominently to its customers. All Delta needs to do is that when delta.com is shows award availability on one of these suspect airlines, is say that the flights may not be available as shown, the reservation is treated as a reservation request for this airline, and the reservation is not actually final until 72 hours have passed.
It is Delta's fault that it does not disclose this fact prominently to its customers. All Delta needs to do is that when delta.com is shows award availability on one of these suspect airlines, is say that the flights may not be available as shown, the reservation is treated as a reservation request for this airline, and the reservation is not actually final until 72 hours have passed.
Jun 18, 2018, 9:14 pm
#49
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: MSP
Programs: Delta PM, Marriott Plat, Hertz Pres
Posts: 3,649
Many of those posts are over 1 year old so it looks like its better now
Absolutely agree with KingBraden, just amazing what some people will defend.
Delta is the one REPORTING fake news without verification
It is a fact that Delta checks the actual availability during payment. However this actual check does NOT update their main search results. So person 1 tries to book a seat, Delta does their actual check, finds out its not available and tells person 1. 5 seconds later a different person does the same search, Delta AGAIN INTENTIONALLY AND MALICIOUSLY tells this new customer the seat IS available even when they know for a fact that it is NOT.
There is absolutely NOTHING technically difficult about this. All Delta has to do is verify the actual availability on the search (choose a date page) page instead of the payment page. Delta's refusal is absolutely intentional and malicious. This is no different from Amazon or Walmart.com's stock status!
Absolutely agree with KingBraden, just amazing what some people will defend.
Delta is the one REPORTING fake news without verification
It is a fact that Delta checks the actual availability during payment. However this actual check does NOT update their main search results. So person 1 tries to book a seat, Delta does their actual check, finds out its not available and tells person 1. 5 seconds later a different person does the same search, Delta AGAIN INTENTIONALLY AND MALICIOUSLY tells this new customer the seat IS available even when they know for a fact that it is NOT.
There is absolutely NOTHING technically difficult about this. All Delta has to do is verify the actual availability on the search (choose a date page) page instead of the payment page. Delta's refusal is absolutely intentional and malicious. This is no different from Amazon or Walmart.com's stock status!
Jun 18, 2018, 11:45 pm
#50
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
Programs: DL GM
Posts: 515
I understand this is a complex idea, but a multibillion dollar company is expected to do more research and keep their IT systems in better order then their customers. If it is wasted or not isn't your opinion, it is the opinion of the person who transferred miles that could be used on any number of airlines and/or hotels to Delta to book a specific ticket they advertises as available knowing full well it may not be.
Delta knowingly ignoring this, even thought CZ apparently does this often, is exactly what makes it their responsibility.
I don't care what delta has to do to make it work, but either they make it work or they should take the consequences of ignoring the issue.
Delta knowingly ignoring this, even thought CZ apparently does this often, is exactly what makes it their responsibility.
I don't care what delta has to do to make it work, but either they make it work or they should take the consequences of ignoring the issue.
Delta does not own China Southern. Delta does not own a majority stake in China Southern. Delta does not own ANY stake in China Southern. Delta has as much control over China Southern as you or I have. An airline alliance is just that, an alliance. Nothing more. The idea that Delta can in some way exert operational control over a completely independent entity is, to put it bluntly, asinine.
It is not Delta's IT systems failing. It is not Delta advertising the ticket as available. Delta can do nothing except report the information given to it by its alliance partner. It has no access to CZ's systems, it has no way to independently verify whether the information is accurate, all they can do is trust the information being provided and when a customer wishes to avail themselves of one of those flights, attempt to book it on their behalf. Even if the availability was "real" there is absolutely zero guarantee that CZ would confirm it, which is often where the problem lies. That is the nature of award travel on a partner airline, not just CZ, not just mainland airlines but any airline. It just happens to occur with CZ more than anyone else.
Absolutely agree with KingBraden, just amazing what some people will defend.
Delta is the one REPORTING fake news without verification
It is a fact that Delta checks the actual availability during payment. However this actual check does NOT update their main search results. So person 1 tries to book a seat, Delta does their actual check, finds out its not available and tells person 1. 5 seconds later a different person does the same search, Delta AGAIN INTENTIONALLY AND MALICIOUSLY tells this new customer the seat IS available even when they know for a fact that it is NOT.
There is absolutely NOTHING technically difficult about this. All Delta has to do is verify the actual availability on the search (choose a date page) page instead of the payment page. Delta's refusal is absolutely intentional and malicious. This is no different from Amazon or Walmart.com's stock status!
Delta is the one REPORTING fake news without verification
It is a fact that Delta checks the actual availability during payment. However this actual check does NOT update their main search results. So person 1 tries to book a seat, Delta does their actual check, finds out its not available and tells person 1. 5 seconds later a different person does the same search, Delta AGAIN INTENTIONALLY AND MALICIOUSLY tells this new customer the seat IS available even when they know for a fact that it is NOT.
There is absolutely NOTHING technically difficult about this. All Delta has to do is verify the actual availability on the search (choose a date page) page instead of the payment page. Delta's refusal is absolutely intentional and malicious. This is no different from Amazon or Walmart.com's stock status!
But sure, Delta is intentionally and maliciously trying to prevent people from using their SkyMiles. On non-DL metal no less. Sure.
Jun 19, 2018, 8:56 am
#51
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: JFK / LGA.. EWR is not part of NYC!
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Posts: 1,047
And again, the idea that this is done with malice on DL's part is absurd. Negligence is one thing -- claiming that DL's express intention is to harm their customers is something else.
Jun 19, 2018, 11:29 am
#52
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 948
Saying "I understand this is a complex idea" and then following it up with the most simple minded point of view possible makes you look ridiculous.
Delta does not own China Southern. Delta does not own a majority stake in China Southern. Delta does not own ANY stake in China Southern. Delta has as much control over China Southern as you or I have. An airline alliance is just that, an alliance. Nothing more. The idea that Delta can in some way exert operational control over a completely independent entity is, to put it bluntly, asinine.
It is not Delta's IT systems failing. It is not Delta advertising the ticket as available. Delta can do nothing except report the information given to it by its alliance partner. It has no access to CZ's systems, it has no way to independently verify whether the information is accurate, all they can do is trust the information being provided and when a customer wishes to avail themselves of one of those flights, attempt to book it on their behalf. Even if the availability was "real" there is absolutely zero guarantee that CZ would confirm it, which is often where the problem lies. That is the nature of award travel on a partner airline, not just CZ, not just mainland airlines but any airline. It just happens to occur with CZ more than anyone else.
Delta does not own China Southern. Delta does not own a majority stake in China Southern. Delta does not own ANY stake in China Southern. Delta has as much control over China Southern as you or I have. An airline alliance is just that, an alliance. Nothing more. The idea that Delta can in some way exert operational control over a completely independent entity is, to put it bluntly, asinine.
It is not Delta's IT systems failing. It is not Delta advertising the ticket as available. Delta can do nothing except report the information given to it by its alliance partner. It has no access to CZ's systems, it has no way to independently verify whether the information is accurate, all they can do is trust the information being provided and when a customer wishes to avail themselves of one of those flights, attempt to book it on their behalf. Even if the availability was "real" there is absolutely zero guarantee that CZ would confirm it, which is often where the problem lies. That is the nature of award travel on a partner airline, not just CZ, not just mainland airlines but any airline. It just happens to occur with CZ more than anyone else.
I expect a company as large as Delta to figure it out, or take the consequences of not doing so. It isn't the customers' fault Delta doesn't know what they are doing.
Jun 19, 2018, 1:19 pm
#53
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: HNL
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Posts: 7,205
Coerce CZ (and others with the same or similar into) into fixing their end. Use their might in SkyTeam.
Alternatively, do what UA did when they gave in to CA, and deploy some development resources to properly interface with the CZ systems. That also can be done, and is probably what DL should do, as CZ and MU are a bigger airline (if combined) than DL (are they not?) and DL is really not that big at all compared to the might and rapid growth of the PRC airlines.
Do either, as opposed to nothing.
Alternatively, do what UA did when they gave in to CA, and deploy some development resources to properly interface with the CZ systems. That also can be done, and is probably what DL should do, as CZ and MU are a bigger airline (if combined) than DL (are they not?) and DL is really not that big at all compared to the might and rapid growth of the PRC airlines.
Do either, as opposed to nothing.
Jun 19, 2018, 1:42 pm
#54
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Join Date: Apr 2001
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Doesn't repeated "negligence" turn into malice pretty quickly? I certainly don't see how they can continue to claim negligence (or how posters here can claim it for them).
Jun 19, 2018, 4:10 pm
#55
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FWIW - DL could be liable because of misleading OP. But it is not actionable.
If DL advertises a flight that can booked by miles, but turns out not being true, DOT can hold DL misleading (Note - DL's Supreme Court case is clear about the stuffs about negligence. So I need not repeat).
The issue is there is a time gap between the mile transfer. So there is a question if the seat was actually available to OP.
If DL advertises a flight that can booked by miles, but turns out not being true, DOT can hold DL misleading (Note - DL's Supreme Court case is clear about the stuffs about negligence. So I need not repeat).
The issue is there is a time gap between the mile transfer. So there is a question if the seat was actually available to OP.
Jun 19, 2018, 5:55 pm
#56
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
Programs: DL GM
Posts: 515
If I log into delta.com to book a ticket, it is most certainly Delta's IT systems I'm using and it is those systems that fail. Of course they can do more than report phantom availability if it is a recurring problem, and they do verify the information each time somone tries to book it. If they didn't include requirements about availability for tickets and awards when they created their alliance I feel bad for their lawyers, but that is hardly my problem.
I expect a company as large as Delta to figure it out, or take the consequences of not doing so. It isn't the customers' fault Delta doesn't know what they are doing.
I expect a company as large as Delta to figure it out, or take the consequences of not doing so. It isn't the customers' fault Delta doesn't know what they are doing.
It would help if you thought of Delta's website as an equivalent to an Expedia or Travelocity in this situation, just with miles, not dollars. The *only* role the website plays is to pull the information provided to it from another company and show it on your screen, with the price (in miles) attached. That is it. Delta is not generating any information.
Keep in mind that even if you get all the way through the partner award booking process, you are still not guaranteed a ticket, you have simply requested one. With *most* partner airlines, this is a very streamlined and easy process. With CZ it is not. It has nothing to do with Delta's systems or policies and everything to do with CZ.
Coerce CZ (and others with the same or similar into) into fixing their end. Use their might in SkyTeam.
Alternatively, do what UA did when they gave in to CA, and deploy some development resources to properly interface with the CZ systems. That also can be done, and is probably what DL should do, as CZ and MU are a bigger airline (if combined) than DL (are they not?) and DL is really not that big at all compared to the might and rapid growth of the PRC airlines.
Do either, as opposed to nothing.
Alternatively, do what UA did when they gave in to CA, and deploy some development resources to properly interface with the CZ systems. That also can be done, and is probably what DL should do, as CZ and MU are a bigger airline (if combined) than DL (are they not?) and DL is really not that big at all compared to the might and rapid growth of the PRC airlines.
Do either, as opposed to nothing.
To DL's credit, when they invested in MU, many of these same issues that had also plagued MU went away. Not all, but many. I don't think DL sees the same future with CZ and vice versa. I think the most likely outcome here is that CZ and ST part ways, which would be unfortunate for those of us who travel the region often, but not the end of the world. Until then though, issues like this are going to happen and I just don't see any way DL can fix it.
Jun 20, 2018, 5:43 am
#59
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 948
The lack of understanding about how information technology, airfare ticketing and airline alliances work is staggering.
It would help if you thought of Delta's website as an equivalent to an Expedia or Travelocity in this situation, just with miles, not dollars. The *only* role the website plays is to pull the information provided to it from another company and show it on your screen, with the price (in miles) attached. That is it. Delta is not generating any information.
Keep in mind that even if you get all the way through the partner award booking process, you are still not guaranteed a ticket, you have simply requested one. With *most* partner airlines, this is a very streamlined and easy process. With CZ it is not. It has nothing to do with Delta's systems or policies and everything to do with CZ.
It would help if you thought of Delta's website as an equivalent to an Expedia or Travelocity in this situation, just with miles, not dollars. The *only* role the website plays is to pull the information provided to it from another company and show it on your screen, with the price (in miles) attached. That is it. Delta is not generating any information.
Keep in mind that even if you get all the way through the partner award booking process, you are still not guaranteed a ticket, you have simply requested one. With *most* partner airlines, this is a very streamlined and easy process. With CZ it is not. It has nothing to do with Delta's systems or policies and everything to do with CZ.
It is one thing that things happen, but things happen with CZ regularly. Delta should deal with it, if Travelocity allowed you to book tickets that didn't exist with some regularity I'm sure there would be complaints about that, too.
Jun 20, 2018, 7:21 am
#60
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Why is that the customer's fault? Why should the customer take the responsibility for Delta's faults, and not Delta?
It is one thing that things happen, but things happen with CZ regularly. Delta should deal with it, if Travelocity allowed you to book tickets that didn't exist with some regularity I'm sure there would be complaints about that, too.
It is one thing that things happen, but things happen with CZ regularly. Delta should deal with it, if Travelocity allowed you to book tickets that didn't exist with some regularity I'm sure there would be complaints about that, too.