xolinlevh

I dont know enough about how things work on the back end to say for sure, but id guess that the system only has the ability to 'book' a ticket, not check if its bookable. So CZ continually sends sends DL a batches of data with what flights can be booked using SkyMiles, Delta loads them into the system and they show up when people search. People then go to book and delta makes the request to CZ to ticket the passenger, and thats where things go wrong, CZ has already sold/or otherwise made that seat unavailable. I dont think Delta has the technical ability to reach into CZ's systems, and check if this COULD be booked, rather they just have the ability to send a request to BOOK it. So theres no technical way for delta to audit whats actually 'there' as opposed to what CZ sent.

theddo

You calling CZ a "expectedly unreliable source" is exactly what makes it a scam. DL isn't a regular customer, it is a multi-billion dollar company, and they are expected to get their .... in order.

I get why you'd be upset if you transfered miles to an airline to book a ticket and was told "ohh, those tickets never existed". If you are not a loyal DL customer, it is possible you'd like to book with another airline with availability instead.

Often1

That calls into question whether there ought to be partner availability at all with CZ. Part of the contract is that it is CZ's obligation to load flights which it has a reasonable basis of being able to fulfill.

RumPatrol

Phone reservations are not the problem, even with Delta. Phone agents have a mechanism in place to verify the authenticity of flights fairly quickly. It can still be a hassle to actually book it, but they can usually determine if the flight is actually there quickly, which is what appears to have happened to the OP. The problem is what is showing up in web searches and unfortunately, unless DL has a human specifically verifying every single fare reported by every single partner, these problems will happen.

I do agree that SkyTeam airlines are more susceptible to this issue than others and Delta, being the "head" of SkyTeam, should probably do more to force the issue but they can only do so much. It may be an "alliance" but at the end of the day these are independent companies. CZ has had this issue for as long as they've been a ST member, all the other mainland Chinese airlines suffer from it as well, I just don't see it changing and don't see an easy fix outside of threatening to boot them from the alliance which would do nothing but hurt SkyTeam, which is why DL is "turning a blind eye" to it. SkyTeam needs those Chinese airlines way more than the Chinese airlines need SkyTeam.

I've been through it, it sucks, but if the alternative is ST having no partners in and around China, I'd rather deal with the availability and booking nightmare. Could just be me though.

RealHJ

I agree with this in principle, yes. It is just that unless you are PM or higher and can cancel w/o redeposit fees, the only way to know are the flights really available is to go and try to ticket it. It should be validated earlier before that step, as for non-PMs and esp. those w/o enough miles in the accounts, it really is a difficult situation, and phone res is far from reliable with DL, unfortunately.

SkyTeam has some of the best coverage in Asia and China in particular, so that is a big plus. (Wonder for how much longer ST can hold on to CZ anyway.)

As for phone res, with DL that is so very unpredictable and highly variable from excellent to outright horrible, and everything inbetween. Many agents will not even check and just say N/A, when really it may be available - but they won't be even bothered to check. So, YMMV based on what agent you get, as some are so disillusioned that they won't even search for int'l non-DL award flights anymore (that's exactly what I was told by one).

MSPeconomist

21A

Zorak

It sounded familiar, so via Google with "site:flyertalk" and something like united air china cancellation, this seems like maybe a master thread, with links to others in the wiki:

Air China awards not on UA.com (on & off issues), cancelled tkts and other issues

don't know how active/ongoing an issue it is (RealHJ's comments suggest the situation may have been addressed)

OhDoctor

The bigger issue, as it was here, is if someone transfers flexible points (Amex or SPG) to DL only to find there was no award availability. As I mentioned above, at least with DL you can redeem those miles @ 1 cent/pp without worrying about award availability. Does it make everything better? No. But at least you have a much lower probability of the entire sum being wasted.

KingBraden

I am always shocked at what people will defend. I'm sorry op didn't spend days researching phantom availability. They looked at the page and believed it to be accurate, on that information they acted. I understand it isn't Delta's fault the availability is not there but they are the one saying it is. Either fix it or stop showing it.

TerryK

Please don't!

xolinlevh

Im more amazed how much times gone into posting on a thread started by some random who made an account to post one poorly written angry thread

RealHJ

1. They can only know is it really available if they have enough miles and try to book. Otherwise, no way to know is the reported availability real or not. Only find out at time of ticketing.
2. Miles are returned to DL account, not AmEx, SPG, or wherever it was transferred in from, if so was done to top off balance for a specific award.

So with DL it really is 'bait and switch' in a way that DL advertises a certain fare and availability, you transfer in miles, try to book and then DL says it's not really available (but if you search again, the flight is there again, just can never complete the ticketing).

It doesn't effect PM+ who can check availability (even if not ready to book) by booking and canceling. It impacts others more, as if one wants to make other travel plans prior to flight, cannot do so witout first booking flight, that then has a redeposit fee, and even worse if miles were transferred in for that specific booking.

RumPatrol

I think everyone sympathizes with the OP's plight, especially those of us who have been through it many times ourselves, but the histrionics are hardly necessary or called for here. Delta is not intentionally cheating anyone. It really is unfortunate for the OP that the flight "didn't exist" but the miles didn't get wasted or disappear, they won't expire and can be used on any number of partners if the OP feels so strongly that DL cheated them that they won't fly DL metal. The idea that Delta (or Amex) should somehow have to refund or transfer back the miles is ridiculous. As is the idea that someone without the miles should be able to hold a flight, speaking as someone who actually flies these routes using miles that I actually have.

I'm not sure you guys are really understanding the actual technical process that happens here. DL and CZ (and other mainland Chinese airlines) are operating on completely different systems. Delta's system can only go by what is being reported to it by the CZ system. There is no mechanism in place to verify the validity of the fares until you go through the booking process or have it verified by a human CSR. It is the same for ANY partner award, the issue is just that CZ (and the other mainland Chinese airlines) tend to post phantom fares, either intentionally or through incompetence, very often.

The idea that it is Delta's fault that a partner is incorrectly reporting availability is ridiculous. Delta is not reporting that there is availability, CZ is. What, exactly, do you want Delta to do? Pull all CZ flights? Pull all mainland Chinese flights? Sit a human at a desk to independently verify every single partner award fare? Unless Delta invests in CZ the same way they did MU, absolutely no mechanism exists for them to verify the information being sent to them by a completely independent company. Trust me, I know how much it sucks because I go through it often, but I just don't see what Delta could possibly do outside of cutting ties with CZ and DL needs CZ more than CZ needs DL.

theddo

I understand this is a complex idea, but a multibillion dollar company is expected to do more research and keep their IT systems in better order then their customers. If it is wasted or not isn't your opinion, it is the opinion of the person who transferred miles that could be used on any number of airlines and/or hotels to Delta to book a specific ticket they advertises as available knowing full well it may not be.

Delta knowingly ignoring this, even thought CZ apparently does this often, is exactly what makes it their responsibility.

I don't care what delta has to do to make it work, but either they make it work or they should take the consequences of ignoring the issue.