Delta to add Seattle-Osaka, Drops SEA-HKG

Old Jun 14, 18, 12:03 pm
  #31  
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Originally Posted by MCO Flyer View Post


I believe DTW-HKG when operating was on a 777. While you are right that DL is just handing these flights off to KE to take care of, DL pilots are not happy about so much long haul international flights being handed over to KE and they reportedly are going to bring this issue up next year in contract negotiations. It seemed like with the additions of LAX-CDG/AMS and MSP-ICN all on DL metal, it seemed like they were going in that direction, but now pulling out of HKG completely is taking a step back. I can’t imagine NRT-SIN/MNL have much time left and SIN will soon become a global business capital that DL dosen’t fly to.
Don't forget all the old flight attendants who were flying long-haul to Asia a couple times per month and then not working the rest of the month. There are a lot of flight attendants mad about not flying to Palau anymore, as they had something like 3-5 days layover there. Just think of all the Asian routes that have been axed in the last 4 years: New York-Tokyo, Bangkok, Taipei, Shanghai (next month), Guam, Palau, Saipan, and Hong Kong (first from Tokyo and now Seattle). I'm sure I'm missing another couple routings.

Singapore may last a little longer, if only because it's already 7-plus hours from Tokyo to Singapore. Seoul to Singapore wouldn't be convenient, especially with non-stop flights to Singapore from New York and San Francisco now an option.
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Old Jun 14, 18, 12:03 pm
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This is so ....ed. I donít pretend to be an airline executive, but DLís frugal fleet strategy seems like it went too far when they canceled the 787 order. A 787 would work on this route IMO. Once you kill a route like this, itís probably done for good. Sad

I was was planning to fly to HKG sometime next year. It was going to be with DL. Now itíll be with CX.
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Old Jun 14, 18, 12:12 pm
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Originally Posted by WWads View Post
This is so ....ed. I donít pretend to be an airline executive, but DLís frugal fleet strategy seems like it went too far when they canceled the 787 order. A 787 would work on this route IMO. Once you kill a route like this, itís probably done for good. Sad
Why? SEA-KIX is in fact a resurrected route itself.
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Old Jun 14, 18, 12:16 pm
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Originally Posted by koreanair720 View Post
Why? SEA-KIX is in fact a resurrected route itself.
Yup. SEA-LHR is another great example of a route that was tried, cancelled, resurrected, and then handed over to VS. Routes come and go based on the economy, demand, airport capacity, and aircraft availability, and it's a healthy part of running a profitable airline.
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Old Jun 14, 18, 12:20 pm
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Originally Posted by hockeyinsider View Post
Well, I could always say Delta couldn't make it because their business-class product between Seattle-Hong Kong just wasn't competitive.
For what it's worth, on my last trip to HKG I flew outbound on Delta and returned on CX, both in business class. CX was maybe ever-so-slightly better onboard, but I wouldn't say DL was uncompetitive - the experience was pretty similar and each airline had its pluses and minuses. Except for the lounges, where I'm not sure anyone worldwide can compare with The Pier - truly world class effort by CX there that Delta has no answer to.

I'd certainly choose CX if frequent flier benefits and price were identical, but at a slight discount and with Medallion benefits, I'd have no qualms about choosing DL's HKG service.

(To be fair, this was while the A330 was operating the route for Delta. But the 777s in their current form aren't long for the world anyway, so the tired J seats onboard there are a temporary problem.)
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Old Jun 14, 18, 12:33 pm
  #36  
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I'm shocked that a major "international" carrier would abandon HKG, but I can see where connecting through SEA wouldn't be appealing to many people, especially if a 767 is used. It always seemed to me that DL decided to go with SEA-HKG rather than DTW-HKG to save costs (hauling all the weight of fuel for an ultralong route) and in a misguided attempt to force DL customers to do Asia through SEA (rather than the obvious choice of another carrier/alliance if pushed).

PMNW flew to KIX from DTW and at least earlier from JFK; I don't recall whether both routes were ever operated simultaneously. At the time I did the JFK-KIX nonstop, it was claimed to be the longest nonstop (commercial passenger) scheduled flight (operated by a USA carrier? I don't think this qualification was needed, but I'm wondering now in retrospect about carriers like BA, QF,and SQ that should have had some long flights too at the time) at 14 hours and 28 minutes. It was a 747 with IFC on the main deck at the time, but I don't remember whether it was the 747-200 or 747-400. A couple years later there was a PMNW MSP-KIX nonstop, also on a 747 and again I don't remember which one but the dates make me suspect that both of these routes were the 747-200. This was the era when the "Japanese FA" changed into a kimono on board, greeted all of the Japanese customers in IFC and business class, and had duties that included service the IFC Japanese meals and tea as well as cleaning the IFC toilets after almost every use (sort of like SQ).{Can I point out that these were the good old days?]

A bit later, the MSP-HKG route was also a 747 on PMNW.

None of these routes seemed to be obviously low yielding, nor were the NRT routes except for PDX and maybe SEA at the time.
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Old Jun 14, 18, 12:33 pm
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Wife & I are booked in C+ SEA-HKG 22-Dec-2018. My reservations still shows intact on the Delta website.
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Old Jun 14, 18, 12:39 pm
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Originally Posted by BenA View Post
Yup. SEA-LHR is another great example of a route that was tried, cancelled, resurrected, and then handed over to VS. Routes come and go based on the economy, demand, airport capacity, and aircraft availability, and it's a healthy part of running a profitable airline.
At least DL and VS are JV partners. I don't think it matters who flies the route.
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Old Jun 14, 18, 12:39 pm
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Has Ed blamed dropping HKG on Emirates yet?
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Old Jun 14, 18, 12:42 pm
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I wonder if there's a corporate contract behind this... Nintendo is the only obvious possibility that comes to mind.
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Old Jun 14, 18, 12:45 pm
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Originally Posted by hockeyinsider View Post
Singapore may last a little longer, if only because it's already 7-plus hours from Tokyo to Singapore. Seoul to Singapore wouldn't be convenient, especially with non-stop flights to Singapore from New York and San Francisco now an option.
Not sure what you mean by this, yes out of NYC or SFO with the directs, certainly the directs would be preferred. But for anyone who has to connect anyway, ICN isn't out of the way over NRT. SIN-ICN is 2900 miles and SIN-NRT is 3300 miles. So about 1 hour flying time difference (SIN-ICN is still going to be about 6 hours). And if going to the US, NRT isn't any more or less convenient than ICN when going to ICN due to the great circle routes. For example, SEA-NRT-SIN is 8,093 miles per GCMap while SEA-ICN-SIN is 8,083 miles. To DTW, SIN-ICN-DTW is 9,503 miles while SIN-NRT-DTW is 9,721 miles.
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Old Jun 14, 18, 12:50 pm
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Originally Posted by sleuth View Post
Has Ed blamed dropping HKG on Emirates yet?
Chinese airline capacity dumping rather than ME3 capacity dumping, but he's not going to say that with the MU stake. Geographically Osaka is less affected
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Old Jun 14, 18, 12:50 pm
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Originally Posted by ethernal View Post
Too much competition. Osaka has very little US origination competition. Hong Kong has too much, so they will offload this low margin route to HKG via the KE joint venture..
maybe im too millennial to grasp ... WHAT competition ?
​​​​​​
1. DL has had a monopoly on the route the whole time. CX or Hong Kong Air didnít jump in.

2. DL doesnt have any other HKG flights on its own metal that might cannibalize loads or yields. And itís not some form of DOT route authority where any adjustment to metals or frequencies will be contested by rivals.

3. DL already has a sufficient domestic feeder network to support the flight (along with the rest of SEA TPAC)

4. The YVR factor is rather thin at this point. The offline leakage is minimal considering itís a 3 hour drive plus a land border crossing. A sizable collection of Airlines serve both.

5. KIX lacks competition for good reason. Thereís a total of 2 flights that arenít beach markets - UA to SFO, JL to LAX. NW did DTW-KIX eons ago. As excited as one might be, dont be overly optimistic about SEA-KIX. It was cancelled by DL back in Nov 2013 when it was down to a 763 (someone on A.net mentioned between DL+NW this is the 3rd attempt at SEA-KIX)

6. DL has a plethora of hubs they could consider moving the flight to if they were truly keen on preserving its presence, either to strong O&D ones like LAX JFK or fortress hub super connectors like MSP DTW ATL where they will still be in a monopoly position (for the latter 3).

im really curious as to the local market loyalty and/or corporate contract demands that DL deem MNL to be crucial enough to continue being flown by its own metal, but a global city like Hong Kong can be fanned out to the JV. Microsoft is the first major corporation I can think of directly impacted by this, since they have a non-trivia division in HKG that have travel needs back to the mothership on a consistent basis. Donít really know what the scenario is over at Amazon.

I can really see CX or HX launching HKG-SEA to backfill. Ditto for ANA backfilling the, in my viewpoint, inevitable switch of PDX-NRT over to PDX-ICN.

One final note about MSP-ICN / HND : I think they already wanted to move HND elsewhere, but kept it on for now for the optics of ďweíre in expansion modeĒ, then 9 months later, claim Japanís refusal to offer a wide open HND led then to no choice but submit a route authority transfer. SEA may sound like the logical place to move it to, but Iíll go against conventional wisdom and place my bets on ATL-HND.
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Old Jun 14, 18, 12:57 pm
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Originally Posted by MSPeconomist View Post
PMNW flew to KIX from DTW and at least earlier from JFK; I don't recall whether both routes were ever operated simultaneously.
I believe NW's JFK-Osaka route was cut before KIX opened. NW had a JFK-ITM-SYD route in the early 90s but dropped it after the ITM-SYD tag was challenged by the Australian government.

NW also operated LAX-KIX (a carryover from an ITM route) and MSP-KIX (briefly around 2000).
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Old Jun 14, 18, 1:07 pm
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Originally Posted by hockeyinsider View Post
Well, I could always say Delta couldn't make it because their business-class product between Seattle-Hong Kong just wasn't competitive.
It was certainly competitive when they operated the A332, but now with the worn-out B777s, they are hopelessly outclassed!
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