readywhenyouare

pvn

lol wut?

this entire thread exists only because you are mad about it.

readywhenyouare

Just the opposite. You will see where I have encouraged Delta to go all in on Airbus.

spin88

Well this thread was about Delta encouraging (so reports indicate) Boeing to do the MOM, and about Delta's possible need for this plane (and to replace what?) and what Airbus would do in response. I do think that passenger comfort is an issue (I love wide-bodies, I don't like what certain airlines (see e.g. UA) have done with ultra-tight Y seating on Boeings) and the actual width/seat of any MOM from Boeing will be of major interest to me personally.

As a business matter, if Boeing offers a MOM airplane (2-3-2 configuration, seating 250, 5000 nmi range as has been mooted) Delta will almost certainly order some, so will UA, perhaps the Japanese and/or Chinese carriers, I happen to think that the existing sales of the A321neo combined with a likely stretch will turn this plane into a money-losing nitch aircraft, sandwiched between the lower CASM of the A321/A322 and the ability to use existing A330s/B788/789s on some of the same missions. I really don't think that esoteric assertions that Boeing A/C are purportedly safer, or pilot preferred, will have diddly to do with what gets bought.

readywhenyouare

Not many people expected Boeing to sell but a handful of 737's when it was introduced. There is a really no perfect 767 replacement. The A330 matches pretty close in range but carries a ton of extra seats that won't get filled except on hub-hub runs. The 787 matches closely in size but has a lot more range. If Boeing can come up with an aircraft that can satisfy both 757 and 767 replacements then I think it will do fine. United will love it and so will many midsize legacy and LCC airlines. The 767 was/is quite popular with airlines in Asia.

Neither do I. And I didn't bring it up. The author of post #53 did and it went downhill from there. I started this thread with my opinion that Delta will never order another Boeing aircraft and that this is a just a ploy to get a better deal from Airbus. I mentioned nothing of safety or aircraft differences.

RobertS975

Lion Air, Transavia, WestJet, EasyJet off the top of my head.

ethernal

Bingo. The economics here are tough. Creating a new widebody frame (which would lose on CASM to the narrowbodies anyways) for this niche market makes no sense.

While my knowledge of airplane design is limited so this may be an ignorant hypothesis, but my hypothesis is when they do their cleansheet design of the 737 they will plan for / co-design a super stretched version that will become their "new 757". With more efficient engines and a lighter composite frame it should be 'easy' to get this to the MoM range (~5000 nm) they need without sacrificing too much cargo capacity.

The Situation

Delta does not care who they do biz with as long as they get a good deal. I believe the whole reason DL said it wants to be the launch customer is so they can influence the specs to optimize the aircraft to fit Delta's need. If DL can get a brand new plane built to its specs, they view it as a good deal and would do a deal with Boeing in a heartbeat. Interesting article on Bloomberg about the 797 today: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...of-new-797-jet
Given that most future purchases of the 797 will not be U.S. airlines, I don't think DL will have much success in getting the plane built to their specs. If they do not get it built to their specs there is no way they will be the launch customer and will probably fill the gap left by 757/767 retirements through a hodgepodge of cheap used aircraft.

kop84

I don't understand why Boeing doesn't start with the 757 frame and update the avionics and the engines, and maybe a few other tweaks. It seems like that would satisfy 95% of what airlines are looking for with a MOM plane, and would be done at a fraction of the cost.

readywhenyouare

jinglish

​​​​​​ All the 757 tooling is gone. Given the cost of rebuilding all of that infrastructure, it makes far more sense to start from a clean slate.

kop84

tossing aside the 757 idea...at least the articles I read make it seem like they are looking at a smaller widebody for the 797. I'm not expert by any means but from the articles I've read it sounds like a 787-800 or the not even realized A350-800, one of which sold ok and the other didn't even get into production. Is the 788 just too expensive or not enough cargo capacity? Reading what airlines want and bumping them up against the specs it seems like a pretty decent fit already.

It seems to me something at least in the same specs of a 757 would be the actual MOM plane. Only one aisle so fewer crew are needed, ~240 passengers, with range to cover TCON US, East Coast TATL, and some Inter Asia flying...what am I missing that Boeing and the airlines aren't?

ethernal

I agree that it seems like the economics imply that a narrowbody is best to fit the MoM (disappointing because widebodies are superior from a customer experience perspective, but it is what it is). I'd be very surprised if Delta comes out with a 797 as a widebody (although with that said I am not an airplane designer so I don't fully understand the tradeoffs between the different options).

pvn

Seems like a job for the 787-7

kop84

That's my point, it seems like the Boeing 787-800 is already virtually everything they are talking about. But everything I've read points to the 797 being a wide-body. And I totally agree with you, that it's (typically) far more comfortable for passengers to be in a widebody vs narrow body, especially if it's 2x3x2 configured. Maybe it's because the airlines know they need to have lie-flats up front and in a narrow body it's either too few seats, or too much real-estate taken up....that's the only thing I can think of why the airlines would want the 797 as a wide-body, especially considering they've all bought up as many 757's that are left and are working at squeezing every last drop out of them.

But this is sounding more and more like a camel...a horse that's built by committee.