Delta Wants To Be 797 Launch Customer
Feb 14, 2018, 4:40 pm
#46
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Perhaps the other angle DL might be trying to leverage is trying to influence the 797 be built to specs that would fit best into Delta's network. Not sure how effective it would be, but its worth a shot. If the 797 turns out to be outside of what DL is looking for, if the plane would be a compromise anyway, I wouldn't be surprised to see DL trying to extend the life of its existing fleet, and buying whatever midsized planes it can find for cheap on the used market. In another 5-10 years, there are going to be a handful of early 787 customers that will be looking to refresh their fleet, since most airlines do not operate their fleet for 30 years. If prices of other models are any indication, the price of a used 787 in 5-10 years might be just the right price for DL.
Feb 14, 2018, 6:58 pm
#47
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They have one of the largest CFM56 and CF6 shops in the world. They are also the only CF34 shop in the country that isn't GE operated.
TechOps isn't remotely close to a one trick pony.
Feb 14, 2018, 9:08 pm
#48
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LOL good idea.
I just think it is beyond fishy that Boeing has lost every Delta aircraft bid. Delta is the only major US airline to not operate the 787 or 737Max. They can't be as bad as Delta claims or the other airlines wouldn't have ordered thousands of them. I just don't see this as anything other than trying to get a lower price from Airbus. If I were Boeing I'd send Delta the MSRP pricing list and say that is the lowest they will go. There is no need for their sales team to waste their time on a dead end like Delta.
Feb 14, 2018, 9:13 pm
#49
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Well based on that logic, and given that every US major and nearly all of the LCCs/ULCCs operate Airbus birds (the only US airlines I can think of that don’t are Southwest and Sun Country, but maybe I‘m missing someother small carrier), the Airbus product must not be as bad as you continually make it out to be throughout these forums.
Feb 14, 2018, 9:25 pm
#50
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The most common phrase during initial Airbus training is "what's it doing?". It is easier for a former Airbus pilot to transition a Boeing than for a former Boeing pilot to transition to an Airbus. An airplane should behave like an airplane and do as it is told to. But we've been down that rabbit hole before. No need to revisit it.
Feb 14, 2018, 9:37 pm
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Could be. If they reduce the range. They won't have any problems.
Feb 14, 2018, 10:15 pm
#52
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You didn’t address the flaw in your logic - you skirted it and redirected. If you think your argument that DL is wrong because they choose not to operate 787s and 737-MAXs while the other US majors do is sound, then it stands to reason that there’s a huge flaw and hole in your logic regarding Airbus when all but 2 US airlines operate at least one type of Airbus in their fleet. Why isn’t your logic flawed when the Airbus angle is brought in?
Last edited by readywhenyouare; Feb 14, 2018 at 10:24 pm
Feb 14, 2018, 10:32 pm
#53
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The Airbus is a very cheap plane to acquire. I'm not sure what more there is to say about that. Airbus gave Eastern Airlines A300's to try out for free and then gave them cheap leases. Delta bought the A350 because they said the 787 was too expensive. This is nothing new. Airbus was directly subsidized from the beginning and cheap prices is how they were able to penetrate the market. Boeing won one ULCC order, Ryanair. Airbus dominates the ULCC segment.
Feb 14, 2018, 10:36 pm
#54
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BTW, the ramp at BFI is littered with 737 tails bound for LCCs/ULCCs. Another flaw in your logic based on the errors in your facts.
Feb 14, 2018, 10:46 pm
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And again - you keep skirting the flaw that has been observed in your logic. In one post you claim that the 787 and 737 MAX can’t be as bad as Delta claims because other airlines, including the other US majors, have ordered thousands. Well by that logic, Airbus can’t be as bad as YOU claim throughout this forum because other airlines - including those majors you reference as 787 and 737 MAX operators - operate thousands of Airbus aircraft, thus showing the Airbus isn’t as bad as you claim, and putting a huge hole in your logic, using your own logic, unless you’re just someone who is incredibly selective in when it is and isn’t okay to use a line of logic. You want the argument one way for one thought process but then want the argument the other way when it comes to another.
It's quite perplexing that some people on FT have a problem with me not liking Airbus. I've never told anyone not to fly on them. It's just a personal choice. They just can't wrap their head around it.
Feb 14, 2018, 10:48 pm
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Feb 15, 2018, 10:00 am
#57
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The odds are you will be fine on the Airbus. But history has shown a handful of accidents where being on an Airbus can be to your detriment due to the flight envelope design. It is worth the risk for airlines to operate them. I refuse to fly on them out of principal. I don't support socialism. Boeing was built from the ground up in an abandoned shipping yard. Airbus was born with a silver spoon in its mouth. So yes when it comes to purchase decisions I would not expect airlines to follow my logic. The odds are in their favor that everything will be fine and they will get a cheaper aircraft. My opinions do not matter. But Delta was out of line with their remarks about the resale value of the 777 and their comment about he 777X being a paper airplane and then turn around and order the A330neo which was also a "paper airplane" at the time. Delta's words have far more weight than mine. Does that answer your concerns?
It's quite perplexing that some people on FT have a problem with me not liking Airbus. I've never told anyone not to fly on them. It's just a personal choice. They just can't wrap their head around it.
It's quite perplexing that some people on FT have a problem with me not liking Airbus. I've never told anyone not to fly on them. It's just a personal choice. They just can't wrap their head around it.
Its also funny you mention Boeing not being subsidized, like they didn’t and don’t take technology that they get paid by the DOD to develop and then roll into their commercial birds without having to worry about R&D costs (and I’m not complaining about it, but don’t pretend Boeing hasn’t been able to take advantage of $$$ from the USG). You’re also choosing to support these Airbus subsidies each you fly Delta, even if you refuse to fly DL’s Airbus birds. Do you think Delta is tracking that you avoid Airbus aircraft? (Hint: No, unless you’ve written a letter to Ed himself and even then, I doubt they care). Do you think Delta sets aside the money you give them and says “we can’t use any of this to buy an Airbus?” (Hint: No). So the only way you can effectively “not support socialism” is to stop flying DL or any airlines that have Airbus in their fleet altogether. Otherwise you’re supporting it whether you want to or not.
Also incidents happen on Boeing jets. I seem to recall, as just one example, some pilots slamming a 777 into a sea wall at SFO not too long ago (and no, I’m not blaming the plane - that was pilot error but Boeing jets don’t have thus immunity you seem to imply that they have).
Here’s another one for you too: if you supposedly don’t support socialism and subsidies, how do you not have an issue with Boeing taking money from subsidized carriers in the Mid East and Asia for the acquisition of aircraft?
It depends on you define ULCC vs LCC since there is no formal definition as defined by the international aviation authorities, at least as far as I can find. But the ramp at BFI is filled with plenty of 737s heading off to Asian carriers utilizing LCCs and ULCC models - airlines I had never heard of until getting to Seattle. I see them on the ramp daily at BFI as that’s where I work. Swoop is a new Canadian ULCC coming online, as part of WestJet, which will use 737-800s. Granted it’s only a fleet of 6 for now, expanding up to 10, but it’s just one example. Sun Country is transitioning to an ULCC style model and they have all 737s.
Feb 15, 2018, 10:48 am
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I just think it is beyond fishy that Boeing has lost every Delta aircraft bid. Delta is the only major US airline to not operate the 787 or 737Max. They can't be as bad as Delta claims or the other airlines wouldn't have ordered thousands of them. I just don't see this as anything other than trying to get a lower price from Airbus. If I were Boeing I'd send Delta the MSRP pricing list and say that is the lowest they will go. There is no need for their sales team to waste their time on a dead end like Delta.
And as to why AA/UA got the MAX? Well AA could not get enough A/C given their needs so split the order, the end result was that AA will have 737Max8s and A321neos. The A321neo was a up-order (I think they were originally A320s). United? Well the orders were by CO management, which has never, ever bought anything from airbus. Levy is more open to airbus, but if there is an e.g. of closed minds, look at UA management, not DL's..
Or Airbus could be visionary, and with the CS300 as a backstop, produce a new, larger single aisle airplane. Expand the width of the A321 by 3-4 inches (allowing wider aisle and/or seats that were slightly wider) for a more comfortable ride with faster boarding, make the base model seat 225 in a two class configuration (stretch would be 250) and use carbon fiber. The result would be an airplane that would have much lower CASM than anything Boeing could do with a twin, and it would also capture some of the sales that Boeing is trying to capture with the 737max10. By using carbon fiber in the hull Airbus could also get a longer range than a re-winged A321 w/o needing to carry more fuel.
CASM and fit for routes is obviously their #1 criteria, but Delta has cited NPS being higher in the A320 family than 737 family. Could be a retroactive excuse, but it's something they may actually consider as a secondary (ok, probably tertiary 
) factor.
edit: just looked for a reference to this on Google but can't find one. I feel for sure I read that somewhere but may have made up this statistic/factoid...
) factor.edit: just looked for a reference to this on Google but can't find one. I feel for sure I read that somewhere but may have made up this statistic/factoid...
There are 4055 orders for the A320neo, and 1920 for the A321neo. Boeing's total orders for the MAX (4306) are less in total, and also are less valuable planes. Boeing has 2212 for the smaller Max8, but only 65 for the Max9 and 274 for the Max10. (1515 have not specified a type, and 58 are for the smaller Max7 which is unlikely to ever be produced).
p.s. and of the 4306 total MAX orders, 251 are with Flydubai (which currently only has 61 planes); and 120 with GOL, 201 are with Lion Air (indonesian ULCC with currently only 116 planes), 110 are with Ryanair, 240 are with SWA, and 155 are with SpiceJet (new Indian ULCC with currently only 34 narrowbodies). 805 of the orders don't have a customer identified with them. MY guess is that some of these orders are vaper-orders that will never be delivered.
Last edited by spin88; Feb 15, 2018 at 10:57 am
Feb 15, 2018, 10:56 am
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The 737Max is from a customer standpoint a substantially inferior aircraft. 6" narrower cabin = 1" narrower seats and about 3" less of headroom. My guess is you have not flown on a new A321neo? No one in their right mind would prefer the Boeing. Sales show its an inferior aircraft, with a heavy placement into existing ULCCs/LCCs. And the MAX, which is basically an ULCC blue light special, is not getting good reviews when it has been placed into service, see e.g. https://www.forbes.com/sites/michael.../#362a42d4f42e https://airwaysmag.com/special-fligh...flight-photos/ Boeing is now the cram them in airplane MFG.
And as to why AA/UA got the MAX? Well AA could not get enough A/C given their needs so split the order, the end result was that AA will have 737Max8s and A321neos. They may be the only major airline to do this. The A321neo was a up-order (I think they were originally A320s). United? Well the orders were by CO management, which has never, ever bought anything from airbus. Levy is more open to airbus, but if there is an e.g. of closed minds, look at UA management, not DL's..
The more likely, and better IMHO response, would be to rewing/re-engine the A321 to make an A322. Stretch it by say 12 feet, which would allow another row of J (or two of F) and another 24 Y seats (getting to 225+/- in a two class configuration). Because it would be a single aisle, the economics would be better, even w/o a carbon fiber hull - which I assume Boeing would use on the 797 - due to the cross section not needing to be an extra 40" wide use to add one 17-18" wide seat in Y (a standard aisle uses 19" of cross section). And Airbus could do this for $3-4B not the $15B that the 797 would cost.
Or Airbus could be visionary, and with the CS300 as a backstop, produce a new, larger single aisle airplane. Expand the width of the A321 by 3-4 inches (allowing wider aisle and/or seats that were slightly wider) for a more comfortable ride with faster boarding, make the base model seat 225 in a two class configuration (stretch would be 250) and use carbon fiber. The result would be an airplane that would have much lower CASM than anything Boeing could do with a twin, and it would also capture some of the sales that Boeing is trying to capture with the 737max10. By using carbon fiber in the hull Airbus could also get a longer range than a re-winged A321 w/o needing to carry more fuel.
I don't recall it with DL (and if so, it would be very interesting as the pmNW Airbus were NOT in a comfortable configuration, and only have recently been retrofitted to make them much nicer A/C) but I did have a conversation with someone from DL who said that they have been getting very positive feedback on the A321s. This said, a major part of Airbus's pitch is that the Airbus gets higher customer scores.
The things to look for are total sales, along with "switchers". I can't think of a single major airlines that switched to the MAX from operating A320s. OTOH, DL and AA were both Boeing loyal, both have recently ordered Airbus. Other major airlines that were 737 operators have gone airbus (ANA, QF, SAS) or have gone from an all Boeing narrow-body fleet to a split in orders (e.g. KAL which ordered like AAL 30 A321neos and 30 Max8s, or DY (norwegian Air Shuttle) which ordered the A321neo but has always been all Boeing before) And some airlines (e.g. CX) have gone with airbus as well when they ordered narrow-body a/c.
There are 4055 orders for the A320neo, and 1920 for the A321neo. Boeing's total orders for the MAX (4306) are less in total, and also are less valuable planes. Boeing has 2212 for the smaller Max8, but only 65 for the Max9 and 274 for the Max10. (1515 have not specified a type, and 58 are for the smaller Max7 which is unlikely to ever be produced).
And as to why AA/UA got the MAX? Well AA could not get enough A/C given their needs so split the order, the end result was that AA will have 737Max8s and A321neos. They may be the only major airline to do this. The A321neo was a up-order (I think they were originally A320s). United? Well the orders were by CO management, which has never, ever bought anything from airbus. Levy is more open to airbus, but if there is an e.g. of closed minds, look at UA management, not DL's..
The more likely, and better IMHO response, would be to rewing/re-engine the A321 to make an A322. Stretch it by say 12 feet, which would allow another row of J (or two of F) and another 24 Y seats (getting to 225+/- in a two class configuration). Because it would be a single aisle, the economics would be better, even w/o a carbon fiber hull - which I assume Boeing would use on the 797 - due to the cross section not needing to be an extra 40" wide use to add one 17-18" wide seat in Y (a standard aisle uses 19" of cross section). And Airbus could do this for $3-4B not the $15B that the 797 would cost.
Or Airbus could be visionary, and with the CS300 as a backstop, produce a new, larger single aisle airplane. Expand the width of the A321 by 3-4 inches (allowing wider aisle and/or seats that were slightly wider) for a more comfortable ride with faster boarding, make the base model seat 225 in a two class configuration (stretch would be 250) and use carbon fiber. The result would be an airplane that would have much lower CASM than anything Boeing could do with a twin, and it would also capture some of the sales that Boeing is trying to capture with the 737max10. By using carbon fiber in the hull Airbus could also get a longer range than a re-winged A321 w/o needing to carry more fuel.
I don't recall it with DL (and if so, it would be very interesting as the pmNW Airbus were NOT in a comfortable configuration, and only have recently been retrofitted to make them much nicer A/C) but I did have a conversation with someone from DL who said that they have been getting very positive feedback on the A321s. This said, a major part of Airbus's pitch is that the Airbus gets higher customer scores.
The things to look for are total sales, along with "switchers". I can't think of a single major airlines that switched to the MAX from operating A320s. OTOH, DL and AA were both Boeing loyal, both have recently ordered Airbus. Other major airlines that were 737 operators have gone airbus (ANA, QF, SAS) or have gone from an all Boeing narrow-body fleet to a split in orders (e.g. KAL which ordered like AAL 30 A321neos and 30 Max8s, or DY (norwegian Air Shuttle) which ordered the A321neo but has always been all Boeing before) And some airlines (e.g. CX) have gone with airbus as well when they ordered narrow-body a/c.
There are 4055 orders for the A320neo, and 1920 for the A321neo. Boeing's total orders for the MAX (4306) are less in total, and also are less valuable planes. Boeing has 2212 for the smaller Max8, but only 65 for the Max9 and 274 for the Max10. (1515 have not specified a type, and 58 are for the smaller Max7 which is unlikely to ever be produced).
Feb 15, 2018, 3:36 pm
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I actually grew up in Seattle, I have an uncle and three cousins who worked for Boeing (two cousins still do), probably half of my good friends growing up's parents worked for Boeing. We have several family friends who were very high up in the company. Boeing has changed, and its the results of the McD management taking over. Had Boeing made the 787 3" narrower (so as to deter 3-3-3) I would have loved it as an A/C. But the bottom line is that Boeing stopped investing and started to play politics after betting the company on the 777 (which is, and remains a great airplane, put any airbus widebody until the 350-9 to shame). It is 10 years past the point where Boeing needed a new narrow body, and the 797 concept is trying to cover two different markets (the old 757-300 size and the 763 size) with a single plane. It will not end well.