Delta Wants To Be 797 Launch Customer

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Old Feb 15, 18, 5:04 pm
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Originally Posted by readywhenyouare View Post


The Airbus is a very cheap plane to acquire. I'm not sure what more there is to say about that. Airbus gave Eastern Airlines A300's to try out for free and then gave them cheap leases. Delta bought the A350 because they said the 787 was too expensive. This is nothing new. Airbus was directly subsidized from the beginning and cheap prices is how they were able to penetrate the market. Boeing won one ULCC order, Ryanair. Airbus dominates the ULCC segment.
Delta is paying more per tail for 321s than 739s. Only slightly but still.

and no. Delta bought the A350 because all Boeing could offer was 787 delivery slots that started in 2019 and offered 77Ls since they didn't have any early slots. Price was about the same, but the A350 came faster (allowing for a faster 744 phase out) as well as a more lucrative MRO deal on the engines.
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Old Feb 15, 18, 5:58 pm
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Originally Posted by Dawgfan6291 View Post
Delta is paying more per tail for 321s than 739s. Only slightly but still.

and no. Delta bought the A350 because all Boeing could offer was 787 delivery slots that started in 2019 and offered 77Ls since they didn't have any early slots. Price was about the same, but the A350 came faster (allowing for a faster 744 phase out) as well as a more lucrative MRO deal on the engines.
May I ask how you know such things?
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Old Feb 15, 18, 6:36 pm
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Originally Posted by spin88 View Post
It will not end well.
Well I hope you will share that with Boeing. I would hate for them to waste all that time and money on something that won't sell well. I'm sure your market studies will put theirs to shame. BTW, what do you think of the A330neo? It certainly looks to be a dog in terms of sales.
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Old Feb 15, 18, 7:58 pm
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Originally Posted by readywhenyouare View Post


May I ask how you know such things?
Prices are pretty easy to figure out from the SEC reports.

The 787 deal was spelled out by Boeing when they lost it. Also on an investor call.
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Old Feb 15, 18, 8:01 pm
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Originally Posted by Dawgfan6291 View Post
Prices are pretty easy to figure out from the SEC reports.

The 787 deal was spelled out by Boeing when they lost it. Also on an investor call.
So if the price difference between the 739 and 321 was negligible then why not just go with all 321's? No need to further complicate a complicated fleet.
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Old Feb 15, 18, 8:19 pm
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Originally Posted by readywhenyouare View Post


So if the price difference between the 739 and 321 was negligible then why not just go with all 321's? No need to further complicate a complicated fleet.
Delivery times factor into the equation too.
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Old Feb 15, 18, 8:27 pm
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Originally Posted by ATOBTTR View Post

Delivery times factor into the equation too.
Perhaps but I wasn't aware of any long wait for the 320 series with them being cranked out at three facilities. No doubt I highly prefer Boeing but it really makes sense for Delta to go with Airbus from this point forward. The fleet will be heavily weighted with Airbus and it just doesn't make any financial sense to operate a mixed fleet if you don't have to. Delta doesn't even use Boeing aircraft in their advertising anymore. I think that says a lot.
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Old Feb 16, 18, 9:28 am
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Originally Posted by readywhenyouare View Post
Well I hope you will share that with Boeing. I would hate for them to waste all that time and money on something that won't sell well. I'm sure your market studies will put theirs to shame. BTW, what do you think of the A330neo? It certainly looks to be a dog in terms of sales.
Well lets see, since the 777 was launched Boeing has (a) declined to invest in a new narrow body to replace the overstretched 737 line in favor of a dog of a plane - the 739er, (b) tried to avoid the expense of a new program by "risk sharing" at the same time trying to stick it to its employees with the 787, that did not go well, then (c) tried to avoid investing in a new very large plane, instead re-engining the 747 to create the 747-8 (sales have not been so hot...) and then (d) elected to sit on its hands about a new narrow-body (see point (a)) while Airbus lapped them by announcing the neo program.

A long series of misteps have really put Boeing behind the 8-ball. As I showed above they have been crushed in the neo vs. MAX fight (6000 units vs 4000 units, with many of Boeings sales being to outfits which may never take the planes) and they are being crushed in the larger space (the A321 vs. MAX9/10 is not really a contest). Airbus has issues (they lack a competitive plane in the space between the 190 seats on the A321 to the 275+ seats on the A350-9) but they are less severe than Boeing's issues.

I just don't think that a small twin is the answer. The plane will have high capital costs, yet the economics of small twins have never worked out well as more efficient single aisles have undercut them at the low end and the larger version then sells much better, killing off the smaller version (see 762/763, 788/789, A358/359) the only smaller version that has sold relatively well over time is the A332, but there the neo version has not sold well (only HA bought it). I just think the 797 will end up being a nitch A/C, and you don't spend $15B to develop a nitch A/C.

A well written piece on the limits of the small widebody approach is here: https://leehamnews.com/2017/05/10/ai...ll-boeing-797/ feel free to rebut it, if you can.

Originally Posted by readywhenyouare View Post
So if the price difference between the 739 and 321 was negligible then why not just go with all 321's? No need to further complicate a complicated fleet.
Delta ordered the 739er in 2011. They have slightly added to the order (I think they ended up with 130 vs the original 100 ordered) but this was the result of using up credit from canceling the 787 order. The Delta order for the A321 (30 of them) dates from 2013, and was added to in 2014, then 2016 and I think they will get 122 of them. The 100 airplane A321neo order is from December of 2017.

It is an interesting question why DL - having ordered a lot of 739ers went with a similar sized A/C from airbus. Perhaps it was a timing issue, perhaps Airbus offered a price that was too good to be passed up to get their foot in the door (the original 30 were ordered with the 330s), but at this point Delta has kept ordering the Airbus and (other than using up credit with Boeing) not the 739er. Everything I hear says that the Airbus is preferred by passengers, and this is what Delta had to say about the most recent order:

“The A321 is fast becoming a favorite aircraft of our customers and employees,” said Delta senior vice president of supply chain management and fleet Greg May. He said the operating economics and capacity for customers “make it a great fit” for domestic flights. Delta again adds to order for Airbus A321 jets
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Old Feb 18, 18, 12:52 pm
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Originally Posted by readywhenyouare View Post


So if the price difference between the 739 and 321 was negligible then why not just go with all 321's? No need to further complicate a complicated fleet.
No need, for whom? With already a sizable 737 and 738 fleet why does it matter?

There was also the 787 settlement which likely affected the 737-900ER order pricing. Plus they even topped up that order from the initial one.
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Old Feb 18, 18, 3:09 pm
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Originally Posted by readywhenyouare View Post


The most common phrase during initial Airbus training is "what's it doing?". It is easier for a former Airbus pilot to transition a Boeing than for a former Boeing pilot to transition to an Airbus. An airplane should behave like an airplane and do as it is told to. But we've been down that rabbit hole before. No need to revisit it.
this is 100% false
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Old Feb 18, 18, 3:16 pm
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Originally Posted by apolloms View Post
this is 100% false
Would you care to explain why?
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Old Feb 18, 18, 3:33 pm
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Originally Posted by readywhenyouare View Post


Would you care to explain why?
I'd actually be more interested in seeing your defend your original statement: "The most common phrase during initial Airbus training is 'what's it doing?'"
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Old Feb 18, 18, 3:37 pm
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Originally Posted by readywhenyouare View Post


Would you care to explain why?
sure. I'm a major airline pilot. I've flown with countless other pilots that have flown both. It makes no difference which one you fly first. The hardest part of the transition is the completely different FMS. Someone that has spent 10 years on a boeing transitioning to airbus is going to have the exact same problems as someone that has spent 10 years on an airbus switching to boeing.
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Old Feb 18, 18, 3:46 pm
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Originally Posted by ATOBTTR View Post
I'd actually be more interested in seeing your defend your original statement: "The most common phrase during initial Airbus training is 'what's it doing?'"
Well I didn't just pull it out of my rear.

https://www.quora.com/How-is-the-Boe...the-Airbus-320

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/comm...airbus.104925/




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Old Feb 18, 18, 3:50 pm
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Originally Posted by readywhenyouare View Post
the forum you linked is general aviation pilots who even admitted they have never flown either...not a stellar source. Had you said that about MD88 training i'd absolutely agree with you.
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