Effective March 1, 2018, Enhanced Requirements Service/Support Animals
Jan 21, 2018, 1:44 pm
#166
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Correct, that's what I said. Were you just quoting me for emphasis or am I missing something?
Jan 21, 2018, 1:52 pm
#167
Join Date: Dec 2012
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My hunch is that Delta's lawyers said " Mr. Delta, we are concerned that some passenger will be seriously injured by an animal in the cabin and sue us for letting anybody bring in any animal with the excuse that it is for support. So, let's give ourselves something to use in court so we can say that we took reasonable precautions to prevent the passenger from being injured by an out of control 'support' animal".
My other hunch is that a lot of high-profit frequent fliers have probably complained enough that even Delta has to listen to them.
Form my observation. most well trained support animals have far better manners and behavior than the average dog owner I see in the public parks.
I have no legitimate need for a support animal, but if I did, I would be very grateful to Delta for taking a stand against those who would make it more difficult to meet my real medical needs.
This issue demands a whole new discussion thread - DYKWMAI - Do You Know Who My Animal Is?
Spoken like a true crazy maker who has mastered the art of transferring his responsibilities to others, and then faulting them when they don't meet his standards.
My other hunch is that a lot of high-profit frequent fliers have probably complained enough that even Delta has to listen to them.
Form my observation. most well trained support animals have far better manners and behavior than the average dog owner I see in the public parks.
I have no legitimate need for a support animal, but if I did, I would be very grateful to Delta for taking a stand against those who would make it more difficult to meet my real medical needs.
This issue demands a whole new discussion thread - DYKWMAI - Do You Know Who My Animal Is?
I have 3 dogs and at any given time i probably am carrying a significant amount of dog hair on my person. So simply sitting next to me without my dogs anywhere near would probably set of your wife's allergies. My point is that dogs play a huge role in our society and everyday life and theyre not going anywhere anytime soon so perhaps your wife should look into some of the many, many effective allergy meds on the market right now.
Last edited by Canarsie; Jan 21, 2018 at 3:03 pm Reason: Consolidation.
Jan 21, 2018, 2:06 pm
#168
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Jan 21, 2018, 2:45 pm
#169
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thought maybe I had misunderstood. I really don't know what the right answer is and I'm genuinely curious to see how this plays out. I just don't see from what I've read in the CFR's how DL can require advanced notification for a genuine service animal. I definitely see how they can do it for ESA's.I'm also curious to hear from someone that uses a service animal (not ESA). Would you have a concern or issue just submitting the form so DL had it on file for whenever you needed to travel? I don't use one nor do I know anyone that does so I don't want to assume anything. I do know that when we travel with someone that has a disability, we let the airline know as soon as we book the ticket to ensure seating is taken care of and/or wheelchair at the gate, etc. I personally don't have an issue doing that as it makes the whole thing go that much smoother. I realize that's not exactly the same thing but my point is that planning ahead whenever possible always helps.
Jan 21, 2018, 2:46 pm
#170
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Fair enough, and I'm by no means a legal expert, but could you explain how/where I'm reading it incorrectly? Seems pretty clear:
The only reference to service animals is:
(8) Transportation of an emotional support or psychiatric service animal in the cabin;
(9) Transportation of a service animal on a flight segment scheduled to take 8 hours or more;
It seems clear that for an ESA or psychiatric service animals that the airline can require advance notice. Or if it's a flight over 8 hours, then service animals are also included. But nothing seems to indicate that a service animal on a flight under 8 hours can require advanced notice.
§382.27 May a carrier require a passenger with a disability to provide advance notice in order to obtain certain specific services in connection with a flight?
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section and §382.133(e)(4) and (5) and (f)(5) and (6), as a carrier you must not require a passenger with a disability to provide advance notice in order to obtain services or accommodations required by this part.The only reference to service animals is:
(8) Transportation of an emotional support or psychiatric service animal in the cabin;
(9) Transportation of a service animal on a flight segment scheduled to take 8 hours or more;
It seems clear that for an ESA or psychiatric service animals that the airline can require advance notice. Or if it's a flight over 8 hours, then service animals are also included. But nothing seems to indicate that a service animal on a flight under 8 hours can require advanced notice.
If DOT has statutory authority, they could promulgate a regulation prohibiting waiting periods, which would be given deference but could still be thrown out by a court.
But they haven't done that. All they have done is told airlines "we don't think waiting periods are proper". That may indicate a willingness to challenge an airline that does it, but it may also indicate an agency that knows that the statute doesn't actually allow a flat ban on waiting periods so they are trying to browbeat the airlines.
But in any court fight, the issue will not be what the guidance says, unless DOT passes a formal regulation barring it and that regulation is found to be a plausible interpretation of the statute- it will be whether a waiting period is a reasonable accomodation to the disabled.
Jan 21, 2018, 3:19 pm
#171
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All that is is guidance.
If DOT has statutory authority, they could promulgate a regulation prohibiting waiting periods, which would be given deference but could still be thrown out by a court.
But they haven't done that. All they have done is told airlines "we don't think waiting periods are proper". That may indicate a willingness to challenge an airline that does it, but it may also indicate an agency that knows that the statute doesn't actually allow a flat ban on waiting periods so they are trying to browbeat the airlines.
But in any court fight, the issue will not be what the guidance says, unless DOT passes a formal regulation barring it and that regulation is found to be a plausible interpretation of the statute- it will be whether a waiting period is a reasonable accomodation to the disabled.
If DOT has statutory authority, they could promulgate a regulation prohibiting waiting periods, which would be given deference but could still be thrown out by a court.
But they haven't done that. All they have done is told airlines "we don't think waiting periods are proper". That may indicate a willingness to challenge an airline that does it, but it may also indicate an agency that knows that the statute doesn't actually allow a flat ban on waiting periods so they are trying to browbeat the airlines.
But in any court fight, the issue will not be what the guidance says, unless DOT passes a formal regulation barring it and that regulation is found to be a plausible interpretation of the statute- it will be whether a waiting period is a reasonable accomodation to the disabled.
The fact that Delta consulted with 15 members of the " Advisory Board on Disability, a group of disability advocates established more than a decade ago and composed of diverse Delta frequent flyers with a range of disabilities." tells me that Delta has their i's dotted and t's crossed.
Jan 21, 2018, 3:37 pm
#172
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lol at people in this thread reading a website and then mixing in their personal biases and preferences and somehow extrapolating to legal rulings from there.
Remind me to call you guys next time I need a lawyer.
A serious consideration of other links that Legal has cited would readily turn up the following:
How do airlines determine whether an animal is a service animal?
I quoted more than was necessary to address your particular point. I did no to demonstrate that DL's new policy follows the DOT guidance.
https://www.transportation.gov/indiv...upport-animals
None of that is relevant to the post I was responding to and I've previously addressed that line of argument anyway.
You clearly don't really understand what types of services can be performed by service animals.
If you start denying passengers based on the size of their animal you're going to get sued into oblivion since you'll be excluding a number of legally legitimate service animals.
The bottom line is that none of these new policies are actually going to stop someone from bringing what most people in this thread are calling a "fake ESA" because these are actually people who pretty much all have the paperwork already. Delta isn't re-defining what actually qualifies.
Remind me to call you guys next time I need a lawyer.
A serious consideration of other links that Legal has cited would readily turn up the following:
How do airlines determine whether an animal is a service animal?
- Airlines can determine whether an animal is a service animal or pet by:
- The credible verbal assurances of an individual with a disability using the animal;
- Looking for physical indicators such as the presence of a harness or tags;
- Requiring documentation for psychiatric support animals and emotional support animals; and
- Observing the behavior of animals.
- Emotional Support and Psychiatric Service Animals - Airlines can request specific documentation and/or 48-hours advanced notice for service animals that are emotional support animals and psychiatric service animals.
- Airlines may require documentation that is not older than one year from the date of your scheduled initial flight that states:
- You have a mental or emotional disability that is recognized in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM);
- You need your emotional support or psychiatric support animal as an accommodation for air travel and/or for activity at your destination;
- The individual providing the assessment is a licensed mental health professional and the passenger is under his/her professional care; and
- The licensed health care professional’s;
- Date and type of professional license; and
- Jurisdiction or state in which their license was issued.
I quoted more than was necessary to address your particular point. I did no to demonstrate that DL's new policy follows the DOT guidance.
https://www.transportation.gov/indiv...upport-animals
If you start denying passengers based on the size of their animal you're going to get sued into oblivion since you'll be excluding a number of legally legitimate service animals.
The bottom line is that none of these new policies are actually going to stop someone from bringing what most people in this thread are calling a "fake ESA" because these are actually people who pretty much all have the paperwork already. Delta isn't re-defining what actually qualifies.
Last edited by Canarsie; Jan 21, 2018 at 3:51 pm Reason: Consolidation.
Jan 21, 2018, 4:04 pm
#173
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If what you are saying is true, then Delta should just give up and not require paperwork at all. It wastes employees' time. Because anyone who wants to bring their pet on board for free is going to lie about it and do so anyway, why not save yourself some labor and do your customer a favor by dropping the unnecessary cost of documentation, since the results will be exactly the same?
Who wants to bet that the number of animals on board with a new "no docs" policy will actually result in no change to the number today? Anyone? LOL
Who wants to bet that the number of animals on board with a new "no docs" policy will actually result in no change to the number today? Anyone? LOL
Jan 21, 2018, 7:15 pm
#174
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 14
I would be willing to bet that Delta is not motivated by some feeling of wanting to take "flagrant advantage of the traveling public." I think they are motivated by simple economics, risk management, and quality of service. Imagine if there was no service fee--there would be more animals on Delta flights with an increased probability of incidents (cleaning up a mess, animals getting aggressive,etc) and overall decrease in the quality of service (pet dander, barking). At the $125 price point, Delta has limited the population of people that are willing to bring a pet onboard.
The ESA option has, unfortunately, allowed some percentage of people to exploit the system as a means of not paying the $125. Fortunately, most people are honest enough that the ESA is not being massively abused.
The ESA option has, unfortunately, allowed some percentage of people to exploit the system as a means of not paying the $125. Fortunately, most people are honest enough that the ESA is not being massively abused.
Jan 21, 2018, 8:49 pm
#175
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If what you are saying is true, then Delta should just give up and not require paperwork at all. It wastes employees' time. Because anyone who wants to bring their pet on board for free is going to lie about it and do so anyway, why not save yourself some labor and do your customer a favor by dropping the unnecessary cost of documentation, since the results will be exactly the same?
Who wants to bet that the number of animals on board with a new "no docs" policy will actually result in no change to the number today? Anyone? LOL
Who wants to bet that the number of animals on board with a new "no docs" policy will actually result in no change to the number today? Anyone? LOL
All that is is guidance.
If DOT has statutory authority, they could promulgate a regulation prohibiting waiting periods, which would be given deference but could still be thrown out by a court.
But they haven't done that. All they have done is told airlines "we don't think waiting periods are proper". That may indicate a willingness to challenge an airline that does it, but it may also indicate an agency that knows that the statute doesn't actually allow a flat ban on waiting periods so they are trying to browbeat the airlines.
But in any court fight, the issue will not be what the guidance says, unless DOT passes a formal regulation barring it and that regulation is found to be a plausible interpretation of the statute- it will be whether a waiting period is a reasonable accomodation to the disabled.
If DOT has statutory authority, they could promulgate a regulation prohibiting waiting periods, which would be given deference but could still be thrown out by a court.
But they haven't done that. All they have done is told airlines "we don't think waiting periods are proper". That may indicate a willingness to challenge an airline that does it, but it may also indicate an agency that knows that the statute doesn't actually allow a flat ban on waiting periods so they are trying to browbeat the airlines.
But in any court fight, the issue will not be what the guidance says, unless DOT passes a formal regulation barring it and that regulation is found to be a plausible interpretation of the statute- it will be whether a waiting period is a reasonable accomodation to the disabled.
Jan 21, 2018, 9:08 pm
#176
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I also believe that most people are honest and good, but the level of abuse is getting out of control. My dog is a service dog and she is trained to read my cues and react. Now I will have to complete the new Delta documents and trouble my vet for more paperwork. It looks like the ESA sites are already trying to combat the new Delta policies. Why does Delta make it difficult for service dog owners too?
Jan 21, 2018, 9:14 pm
#177
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I also believe that most people are honest and good, but the level of abuse is getting out of control. My dog is a service dog and she is trained to read my cues and react. Now I will have to complete the new Delta documents and trouble my vet for more paperwork. It looks like the ESA sites are already trying to combat the new Delta policies. Why does Delta make it difficult for service dog owners too?
Because, unfortunately it's another case of a few liars ruining it for the those that are honest and have a genuine need (blind, deaf, physically handicapped).........only it's no longer just "a few" people doing this - it is many people doing this. It's no secret that people just want to bring their pets with them because they don't want to kennel them. The airlines are to blame. They should never have separated the two groups - (service animal for handicapped people and emotional support animals for anyone who deems it necessary for themselves or defines it for themselves). Sorry but both MEDICAL and VETERINARY Documents should be asked for by airline staff (not older than 30 days) and should be required for those that are emotionally fragile. I've checked people in for 37+ years and never had so many "emotional" people checking in with their pets as in the last ten years. Several times I stepped over the politically correct line and tried to get a definition of what "emotional support" the dog/ cat gave them but was quickly met with "you can't ask me that" or an icy stare. People know how to game it for sure. The only thing that will stop this is Delta getting this ball rolling and all the others follow.
Jan 21, 2018, 10:06 pm
#178
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All that is is guidance.
No. It is a regulation. The above is from Title 14, Chapter II, Subchapter D, Part 382... and published in the US Code of Federal Regulations. It is called a Rule, but in Federal parlance, and Rule is a Regulation. Admittedly, it is written in somewhat novel wording (as in "You may...") but it is regulation. You may want to become more familiar with the Federal regulatory context.
If DOT has statutory authority, they could promulgate a regulation prohibiting waiting periods, which would be given deference but could still be thrown out by a court.
DOT does have statutory authority, And, under that authority they have issued a regulation (rule) detailing how they intend to implement the requirements of the Air Carrier Access Act (ACAA). Why would they want to implement a regulation prohibiting waiting perios, if they feel that waiting periods are appropriate to implement the intent of the Act?
But they haven't done that. All they have done is told airlines "we don't think waiting periods are proper". That may indicate a willingness to challenge an airline that does it, but it may also indicate an agency that knows that the statute doesn't actually allow a flat ban on waiting periods so they are trying to browbeat the airlines.
When did DOT say that they do not believe that waiting periods are appropriate? Their Rule allows the airlines to impose waiting periods for ESAs.
But in any court fight, the issue will not be what the guidance says, unless DOT passes a formal regulation barring it and that regulation is found to be a plausible interpretation of the statute- it will be whether a waiting period is a reasonable accomodation to the disabled.
No. It is a regulation. The above is from Title 14, Chapter II, Subchapter D, Part 382... and published in the US Code of Federal Regulations. It is called a Rule, but in Federal parlance, and Rule is a Regulation. Admittedly, it is written in somewhat novel wording (as in "You may...") but it is regulation. You may want to become more familiar with the Federal regulatory context.
If DOT has statutory authority, they could promulgate a regulation prohibiting waiting periods, which would be given deference but could still be thrown out by a court.
DOT does have statutory authority, And, under that authority they have issued a regulation (rule) detailing how they intend to implement the requirements of the Air Carrier Access Act (ACAA). Why would they want to implement a regulation prohibiting waiting perios, if they feel that waiting periods are appropriate to implement the intent of the Act?
But they haven't done that. All they have done is told airlines "we don't think waiting periods are proper". That may indicate a willingness to challenge an airline that does it, but it may also indicate an agency that knows that the statute doesn't actually allow a flat ban on waiting periods so they are trying to browbeat the airlines.
When did DOT say that they do not believe that waiting periods are appropriate? Their Rule allows the airlines to impose waiting periods for ESAs.
But in any court fight, the issue will not be what the guidance says, unless DOT passes a formal regulation barring it and that regulation is found to be a plausible interpretation of the statute- it will be whether a waiting period is a reasonable accomodation to the disabled.
Jan 21, 2018, 10:09 pm
#179
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thought maybe I had misunderstood. I really don't know what the right answer is and I'm genuinely curious to see how this plays out. I just don't see from what I've read in the CFR's how DL can require advanced notification for a genuine service animal. I definitely see how they can do it for ESA's.I'm also curious to hear from someone that uses a service animal (not ESA). Would you have a concern or issue just submitting the form so DL had it on file for whenever you needed to travel? I don't use one nor do I know anyone that does so I don't want to assume anything. I do know that when we travel with someone that has a disability, we let the airline know as soon as we book the ticket to ensure seating is taken care of and/or wheelchair at the gate, etc. I personally don't have an issue doing that as it makes the whole thing go that much smoother. I realize that's not exactly the same thing but my point is that planning ahead whenever possible always helps.
(9) Transportation of a service animal on a flight segment scheduled to take 8 hours or more;
Jan 21, 2018, 11:33 pm
#180
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(c) You may require a passenger with a disability to provide up to 48 hours' advance notice and check in one hour before the check-in time for the general public to receive the following services and accommodations. The services listed in paragraphs (c)(1) through (c)(3) of this section are optional; you are not required to provide them, but you may choose to do so.
(9) Transportation of a service animal on a flight segment scheduled to take 8 hours or more;
(9) Transportation of a service animal on a flight segment scheduled to take 8 hours or more;
dilanesp wasn't making sense and I thought it was just me.
