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Warning for all Medallion members traveling to Tokyo HND

Warning for all Medallion members traveling to Tokyo HND

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Old Jan 22, 19, 6:26 am
  #91  
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Originally Posted by ATOBTTR View Post
You have to look at this from a larger network perspective. The NRT hub for DL relied on both O&D to Tokyo and onward connections on DL's flights to sustain all the flights into and onward from NRT. When NRT was the only option from N. America, all airlines were on an about equal footing in this regard. With HND being given a flew slots for service to some N. American cities, HND is now the preferred option for much of the Tokyo bound O&D traffic. Both AA and UA and their respective alliance partners still have a significant presence at both HND and NRT so they can still attract O&D and connections to/through both airports and sustain their operations. However, due to the few slots at HND that have been given to N. American carriers, DL cannot shift its entire operation to HND but to remain competitive at all in TYO, they of course have to take what they can get at HND with that being the preferred airport for most of TYO. Thus for DL, the O&D required to sustain their NRT ops is being syphoned away to their own flights to HND and also to the partner flights for customers who simply prefer the more convenient option of HND and are perhaps more tied to convenience or time-savings than airline/alliance loyalty.

Tokyo may still be an "important" market for DL, but it is becoming a spoke in the DL system, not a hub and the traffic that was going onward from NRT to other Asian destinations that have been cut can be funneled through other hubs.
Yes, I'm aware of these. NRT and HND are both 'spokes' with only one having a (very nice) lounge. Santiago Chile apparently also has a Delta lounge but is very much a 'spoke' of lesser global significance than Tokyo. My point is that Delta isn't helping their partner disadvantage in Tokyo by not having a lounge in HND.
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Old Jan 22, 19, 10:59 am
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Originally Posted by Justin026 View Post
It sounds like Delta has chosen the Hawaii-Tokyo route to just screw up in every way. The poorest workers are assigned to deliberately withhold even minimal service on what I guess are the lousiest planes?. I am glad I've never had a reason to fly the route, but I feel sorry for the dedicated staff in Tokyo that these flight crews keep letting down.
I think it has to do with crew seniority who pick these routes, and as Japanese pax won't complain, then do the least possible. The service in the J cabin, while not always so (there are positive outliers), usually leaves a lot to be desired when compared to any other airline.

HNL-FUK had the worst planes years ago (the horrid old DL recliners 767s, vs A330s and 747s of HNL-NRT, HNL-KIX, HNL-NGO). Now all are equal in 767, but then again that is the aircraft that DL flies the most. Where others fly A380s, 747s, A350s and 777s, multiple flights per day, DL has trouble filling one 767...that is telling.
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Old Jan 22, 19, 11:59 am
  #93  
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Originally Posted by RealHJ View Post
I think it has to do with crew seniority who pick these routes, and as Japanese pax won't complain, then do the least possible. The service in the J cabin, while not always so (there are positive outliers), usually leaves a lot to be desired when compared to any other airline.

HNL-FUK had the worst planes years ago (the horrid old DL recliners 767s, vs A330s and 747s of HNL-NRT, HNL-KIX, HNL-NGO). Now all are equal in 767, but then again that is the aircraft that DL flies the most. Where others fly A380s, 747s, A350s and 777s, multiple flights per day, DL has trouble filling one 767...that is telling.
I don't know. The issue here is large segments of the Japanese population still buy their vacations through their travel agent and often buy air and hotel packages. So I don't know how many of these planes, regardless of airline, are filled with passengers deliberately choosing to fly a given airline or, in this case, choosing not to fly Delta because of its service, aircraft and hard product.
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Old Jan 22, 19, 2:26 pm
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Originally Posted by hockeyinsider View Post
I don't know. The issue here is large segments of the Japanese population still buy their vacations through their travel agent and often buy air and hotel packages. So I don't know how many of these planes, regardless of airline, are filled with passengers deliberately choosing to fly a given airline or, in this case, choosing not to fly Delta because of its service, aircraft and hard product.
Very true.

A few years ago I was in a mall in a small Japanese city on Kyushu (few hours drive from FUK) and I happened to notice how a travel agency had Hawaii travel with Delta flights featured on front page of their magazine and in the store window. They were trying to sell the then BE (BusinessElite) DL recliners on its ancient 767s (some of the worst J seats out there at the time), so it probably wasn't that easy of a sell to pay a business class premium for practically premium economy equivalent seating. Anyhow, DL certainly has been marketed and featured by Japanese travel agencies before, but recently one can only assume from the massive cut-backs and cancellations, that they are not doing that well on that - even on routes with no competition (HNL-FUK) that have run for many years, and then all of a sudden get canned.
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Old Jan 22, 19, 3:40 pm
  #95  
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DL may not want to sell so many tickets on these beach routes. I suspect they're low yield, like most leisure routes.
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Old Jan 22, 19, 4:28 pm
  #96  
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Originally Posted by MSPeconomist View Post
DL may not want to sell so many tickets on these beach routes. I suspect they're low yield, like most leisure routes.
In economy, yes. But the business-class tickets aren't cheap for the equivelent of Detroit or New York to London or Paris,
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Old Jan 22, 19, 5:09 pm
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Originally Posted by hockeyinsider View Post
In economy, yes. But the business-class tickets aren't cheap for the equivelent of Detroit or New York to London or Paris,
...and the J cabins are routinely full on DL, JL (much larger J cabin on the 777s), NH, HA, and other airlines. (not counting Scoot or Air Asia X, as those "business class" are not really comparable and more like premium economy, though D7 angled lie flats are similar to NW/DL former WBC seats)

NH three brand new A380s being soon added on NRT-HNL have both first class suites and business class, taking up more than 2/3s of the upper deck. Clearly there is more demand than supply for true J (and apparently even F) for JP-HI flights, as NH wouldn't be spending the $100s of millions on the new aircraft dedicated and custom-built for these routes if it wasn't so.

May be problem is that DL aircraft are too small and the J cabins too small on the 767-300s (only 6-7 rows). Though with 747s it was less than full before, but probably something inbetween 767-300 and 747 (A330? where did all those disappear to...) is the best fit.
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Old Jan 22, 19, 5:27 pm
  #98  
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To return to the topic of HND:

Look carefully at public transportation options to/from your hotel. Personally I'm a fan of the door to door Friendly LimoBus, but I noticed that some hotels in central Tokyo have service to/from HND but not NRT or vv. It also seems common for some hotels to have greater frequency in one direction, so that you can find huge gaps in the schedule. Also, the schedules tend to change, with some hotels being suspended or dropped and others gaining or losing frequency. Information on hotel websites can be wrong, so be sure to verify using the limobus website. The trains and monorail from HND don't go near many of the hotels in central Tokyo, but you can get to the JR circle line.

It's a pretty long walk between the limobus stop and the actual international terminal at HND. Be sure to allow enough time. On the way, there's a desk that sells bus tickets (and accepts all major credit cards, including AmEx, unlike the case of ICN).

In a taxi, the trip tends to take 20-40 minutes and costs under 10,000 yen, depending of course on the location of your hotel and traffic. [Most routes go over the Rainbow Bridge, but that isn't always the fastest way.] However, it's a long walk and escalator ride from where the taxi drops you off and DL's check in counters. Do not assume that you're dropped off curbside and just walk a short distance on the same level to the check in counter. If you can't use the escalator (for example, too much luggage or small children), there can be lines for the few elevators, so plan accordingly.

After answering the minor security questions and checking in (or dropping bags), there's an elite security line with a big banner on the far right side. There's no elite line for passport control, although there are automated gates, I believe for Japanese passports. When you finish this, go to the left for DL's gate (at least most of the time). The lounges are on the left side of the concourse (you go in a sliding door after passing signs to some restrooms) and then up the escalators or elevator) and almost as far as the DL gate IME.
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Old Jan 22, 19, 6:52 pm
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Originally Posted by MSPeconomist View Post
To return to the topic of HND:

Look carefully at public transportation options to/from your hotel. Personally I'm a fan of the door to door Friendly LimoBus, but I noticed that some hotels in central Tokyo have service to/from HND but not NRT or vv.
Well, if you're going on business this is likely irrelevant because presumably your ground transportation costs to and from the airport is covered by your employer or client. If I was flying for business, I'd fly into HND and out of NRT.
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Old Jan 22, 19, 9:36 pm
  #100  
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Well I grew up with Northwest Orient flying them regularly to get to TPE since I was 10 months old.

NW was the Asian jewel with only United being with a similar original network at NRT.

Delta basically ruined the Asian market, removing key destinations that were very important to DL/NW customers (TPE, BKK, HKG, KIX, etc), making the product inferior to the competition (no HND lounge options, the above J service complaints, etc)....it seemed clear to me, that they let the people that ran the Pacific business go and they didn't know how to make it work with a disjointed strategy. They have a few domestic code shares (NH to CTS for example). But certainly they could have done a lot more with their ST and non-ST partners to help make up for some of the changes (like NRT/HND connection to TPE (and maybe other destinations in Taiwan) on China Airlines (CI).

I feel everyones frustrations as I'm looking to do another TPE trip soon and going to HND/CTS next month.

It's not much of a pleasure to do DL to Asia. KAL isn't inspiring either but I'll see on my CTS-ICN-SFO flight soon in J.
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Old Jan 22, 19, 9:53 pm
  #101  
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Originally Posted by NOLAnwGOLD View Post
Well I grew up with Northwest Orient flying them regularly to get to TPE since I was 10 months old.

NW was the Asian jewel with only United being with a similar original network at NRT.

Delta basically ruined the Asian market, removing key destinations that were very important to DL/NW customers (TPE, BKK, HKG, KIX, etc), making the product inferior to the competition (no HND lounge options, the above J service complaints, etc)....it seemed clear to me, that they let the people that ran the Pacific business go and they didn't know how to make it work with a disjointed strategy. They have a few domestic code shares (NH to CTS for example). But certainly they could have done a lot more with their ST and non-ST partners to help make up for some of the changes (like NRT/HND connection to TPE (and maybe other destinations in Taiwan) on China Airlines (CI).

I feel everyones frustrations as I'm looking to do another TPE trip soon and going to HND/CTS next month.

It's not much of a pleasure to do DL to Asia. KAL isn't inspiring either but I'll see on my CTS-ICN-SFO flight soon in J.
I flew ATL-PVG (I think, my longest flight ever) in regular Y last week, and was honestly seriously impressed with the entire package (3 decent meals, friendly FAs, Wifi worked for a while, great IFE). Basically, it was much better than any NW or UA transpac I've done in Y.
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Old Jan 22, 19, 10:34 pm
  #102  
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Originally Posted by hockeyinsider View Post
Well, if you're going on business this is likely irrelevant because presumably your ground transportation costs to and from the airport is covered by your employer or client. If I was flying for business, I'd fly into HND and out of NRT.
I can't and won't waste money just because it's OPM. I'm expected to be reasonable about business travel and plus it all comes from my own travel budgets or is directly reimbursed from some organization whose rules I must follow.

BTW, you do realize that a regular taxi to/from NRT is several hundred dollars and even more for hotel car service, don't you? That receipt could be hard to explain in normal circumstances.
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Old Jan 23, 19, 8:45 am
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Originally Posted by MSPeconomist View Post
I can't and won't waste money just because it's OPM. I'm expected to be reasonable about business travel and plus it all comes from my own travel budgets or is directly reimbursed from some organization whose rules I must follow.

BTW, you do realize that a regular taxi to/from NRT is several hundred dollars and even more for hotel car service, don't you? That receipt could be hard to explain in normal circumstances.
Understandable. I've had clients that insist on the lowest airfare at secondary or further away airports even when I try explaining the cost of getting from there to where I need to be will be more expensive because of ground transport. Sometimes you can't reason with bean counters.
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Old Jan 23, 19, 12:22 pm
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Originally Posted by NOLAnwGOLD View Post
NW was the Asian jewel with only United being with a similar original network at NRT.

Delta basically ruined the Asian market
I find it hard to believe that even if NW still existed or was the dominant corporate voice after the merger they would still be operating the scissor hub in its full glory.
  1. TPAC JVs were not a thing in 2007. The only way NW would in 2019 be able to maintain their 2007 TYO presence is if they had managed to sign a JV with JL or NH.
  2. HND TPAC to the US was not a thing, with impact as already discussed upthread.
  3. NW had itself ordered 787s with the intent of overflying NRT.
DL's strategy is very clear now, even accounting for the silly drama of the KE feud a few years ago and the HND temper tantrums. That strategy looks just like their TATL strategy: JVs to key hubs, codeshares for regional travel, and select direct flights from US hubs where the economics make sense.
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Old Apr 6, 19, 1:59 am
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Originally Posted by hockeyinsider View Post
Plan B. I wouldn't want to be counting on China over the next 5 or 10 years. It's very unstable. All those rich kids who came over here to American universities, studied, used Facebook and Google for the first time, and then went back to communist China will eventually want more than they have now. The crackdown on religious exercise, particularly Christianity, and Beijing's anti-Taiwan rhetoric of late are signs that things are unstable over there.
the english name for the city is Peking
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