Warning for all Medallion members traveling to Tokyo HND
#91
Join Date: May 2010
Location: TPA
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Posts: 2,203
You have to look at this from a larger network perspective. The NRT hub for DL relied on both O&D to Tokyo and onward connections on DL's flights to sustain all the flights into and onward from NRT. When NRT was the only option from N. America, all airlines were on an about equal footing in this regard. With HND being given a flew slots for service to some N. American cities, HND is now the preferred option for much of the Tokyo bound O&D traffic. Both AA and UA and their respective alliance partners still have a significant presence at both HND and NRT so they can still attract O&D and connections to/through both airports and sustain their operations. However, due to the few slots at HND that have been given to N. American carriers, DL cannot shift its entire operation to HND but to remain competitive at all in TYO, they of course have to take what they can get at HND with that being the preferred airport for most of TYO. Thus for DL, the O&D required to sustain their NRT ops is being syphoned away to their own flights to HND and also to the partner flights for customers who simply prefer the more convenient option of HND and are perhaps more tied to convenience or time-savings than airline/alliance loyalty.
Tokyo may still be an "important" market for DL, but it is becoming a spoke in the DL system, not a hub and the traffic that was going onward from NRT to other Asian destinations that have been cut can be funneled through other hubs.
Tokyo may still be an "important" market for DL, but it is becoming a spoke in the DL system, not a hub and the traffic that was going onward from NRT to other Asian destinations that have been cut can be funneled through other hubs.
#92
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: HNL
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It sounds like Delta has chosen the Hawaii-Tokyo route to just screw up in every way. The poorest workers are assigned to deliberately withhold even minimal service on what I guess are the lousiest planes?. I am glad I've never had a reason to fly the route, but I feel sorry for the dedicated staff in Tokyo that these flight crews keep letting down.
HNL-FUK had the worst planes years ago (the horrid old DL recliners 767s, vs A330s and 747s of HNL-NRT, HNL-KIX, HNL-NGO). Now all are equal in 767, but then again that is the aircraft that DL flies the most. Where others fly A380s, 747s, A350s and 777s, multiple flights per day, DL has trouble filling one 767...that is telling.
#93
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I think it has to do with crew seniority who pick these routes, and as Japanese pax won't complain, then do the least possible. The service in the J cabin, while not always so (there are positive outliers), usually leaves a lot to be desired when compared to any other airline.
HNL-FUK had the worst planes years ago (the horrid old DL recliners 767s, vs A330s and 747s of HNL-NRT, HNL-KIX, HNL-NGO). Now all are equal in 767, but then again that is the aircraft that DL flies the most. Where others fly A380s, 747s, A350s and 777s, multiple flights per day, DL has trouble filling one 767...that is telling.
HNL-FUK had the worst planes years ago (the horrid old DL recliners 767s, vs A330s and 747s of HNL-NRT, HNL-KIX, HNL-NGO). Now all are equal in 767, but then again that is the aircraft that DL flies the most. Where others fly A380s, 747s, A350s and 777s, multiple flights per day, DL has trouble filling one 767...that is telling.
#94
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: HNL
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I don't know. The issue here is large segments of the Japanese population still buy their vacations through their travel agent and often buy air and hotel packages. So I don't know how many of these planes, regardless of airline, are filled with passengers deliberately choosing to fly a given airline or, in this case, choosing not to fly Delta because of its service, aircraft and hard product.
A few years ago I was in a mall in a small Japanese city on Kyushu (few hours drive from FUK) and I happened to notice how a travel agency had Hawaii travel with Delta flights featured on front page of their magazine and in the store window. They were trying to sell the then BE (BusinessElite) DL recliners on its ancient 767s (some of the worst J seats out there at the time), so it probably wasn't that easy of a sell to pay a business class premium for practically premium economy equivalent seating. Anyhow, DL certainly has been marketed and featured by Japanese travel agencies before, but recently one can only assume from the massive cut-backs and cancellations, that they are not doing that well on that - even on routes with no competition (HNL-FUK) that have run for many years, and then all of a sudden get canned.
#95
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DL may not want to sell so many tickets on these beach routes. I suspect they're low yield, like most leisure routes.
#96
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#97
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: HNL
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NH three brand new A380s being soon added on NRT-HNL have both first class suites and business class, taking up more than 2/3s of the upper deck. Clearly there is more demand than supply for true J (and apparently even F) for JP-HI flights, as NH wouldn't be spending the $100s of millions on the new aircraft dedicated and custom-built for these routes if it wasn't so.
May be problem is that DL aircraft are too small and the J cabins too small on the 767-300s (only 6-7 rows). Though with 747s it was less than full before, but probably something inbetween 767-300 and 747 (A330? where did all those disappear to...) is the best fit.
#98
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To return to the topic of HND:
Look carefully at public transportation options to/from your hotel. Personally I'm a fan of the door to door Friendly LimoBus, but I noticed that some hotels in central Tokyo have service to/from HND but not NRT or vv. It also seems common for some hotels to have greater frequency in one direction, so that you can find huge gaps in the schedule. Also, the schedules tend to change, with some hotels being suspended or dropped and others gaining or losing frequency. Information on hotel websites can be wrong, so be sure to verify using the limobus website. The trains and monorail from HND don't go near many of the hotels in central Tokyo, but you can get to the JR circle line.
It's a pretty long walk between the limobus stop and the actual international terminal at HND. Be sure to allow enough time. On the way, there's a desk that sells bus tickets (and accepts all major credit cards, including AmEx, unlike the case of ICN).
In a taxi, the trip tends to take 20-40 minutes and costs under 10,000 yen, depending of course on the location of your hotel and traffic. [Most routes go over the Rainbow Bridge, but that isn't always the fastest way.] However, it's a long walk and escalator ride from where the taxi drops you off and DL's check in counters. Do not assume that you're dropped off curbside and just walk a short distance on the same level to the check in counter. If you can't use the escalator (for example, too much luggage or small children), there can be lines for the few elevators, so plan accordingly.
After answering the minor security questions and checking in (or dropping bags), there's an elite security line with a big banner on the far right side. There's no elite line for passport control, although there are automated gates, I believe for Japanese passports. When you finish this, go to the left for DL's gate (at least most of the time). The lounges are on the left side of the concourse (you go in a sliding door after passing signs to some restrooms) and then up the escalators or elevator) and almost as far as the DL gate IME.
Look carefully at public transportation options to/from your hotel. Personally I'm a fan of the door to door Friendly LimoBus, but I noticed that some hotels in central Tokyo have service to/from HND but not NRT or vv. It also seems common for some hotels to have greater frequency in one direction, so that you can find huge gaps in the schedule. Also, the schedules tend to change, with some hotels being suspended or dropped and others gaining or losing frequency. Information on hotel websites can be wrong, so be sure to verify using the limobus website. The trains and monorail from HND don't go near many of the hotels in central Tokyo, but you can get to the JR circle line.
It's a pretty long walk between the limobus stop and the actual international terminal at HND. Be sure to allow enough time. On the way, there's a desk that sells bus tickets (and accepts all major credit cards, including AmEx, unlike the case of ICN).
In a taxi, the trip tends to take 20-40 minutes and costs under 10,000 yen, depending of course on the location of your hotel and traffic. [Most routes go over the Rainbow Bridge, but that isn't always the fastest way.] However, it's a long walk and escalator ride from where the taxi drops you off and DL's check in counters. Do not assume that you're dropped off curbside and just walk a short distance on the same level to the check in counter. If you can't use the escalator (for example, too much luggage or small children), there can be lines for the few elevators, so plan accordingly.
After answering the minor security questions and checking in (or dropping bags), there's an elite security line with a big banner on the far right side. There's no elite line for passport control, although there are automated gates, I believe for Japanese passports. When you finish this, go to the left for DL's gate (at least most of the time). The lounges are on the left side of the concourse (you go in a sliding door after passing signs to some restrooms) and then up the escalators or elevator) and almost as far as the DL gate IME.
#99
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Well, if you're going on business this is likely irrelevant because presumably your ground transportation costs to and from the airport is covered by your employer or client. If I was flying for business, I'd fly into HND and out of NRT.
#100
Join Date: May 2004
Location: formerly Gold now Diamond, formerly MSY, now LAX, formerly NW, now DL
Programs: Hyatt Plat, Hilton Gold, SPG Gold, Delta Diamond/1MM
Posts: 4,635
Well I grew up with Northwest Orient flying them regularly to get to TPE since I was 10 months old.
NW was the Asian jewel with only United being with a similar original network at NRT.
Delta basically ruined the Asian market, removing key destinations that were very important to DL/NW customers (TPE, BKK, HKG, KIX, etc), making the product inferior to the competition (no HND lounge options, the above J service complaints, etc)....it seemed clear to me, that they let the people that ran the Pacific business go and they didn't know how to make it work with a disjointed strategy. They have a few domestic code shares (NH to CTS for example). But certainly they could have done a lot more with their ST and non-ST partners to help make up for some of the changes (like NRT/HND connection to TPE (and maybe other destinations in Taiwan) on China Airlines (CI).
I feel everyones frustrations as I'm looking to do another TPE trip soon and going to HND/CTS next month.
It's not much of a pleasure to do DL to Asia. KAL isn't inspiring either but I'll see on my CTS-ICN-SFO flight soon in J.
NW was the Asian jewel with only United being with a similar original network at NRT.
Delta basically ruined the Asian market, removing key destinations that were very important to DL/NW customers (TPE, BKK, HKG, KIX, etc), making the product inferior to the competition (no HND lounge options, the above J service complaints, etc)....it seemed clear to me, that they let the people that ran the Pacific business go and they didn't know how to make it work with a disjointed strategy. They have a few domestic code shares (NH to CTS for example). But certainly they could have done a lot more with their ST and non-ST partners to help make up for some of the changes (like NRT/HND connection to TPE (and maybe other destinations in Taiwan) on China Airlines (CI).
I feel everyones frustrations as I'm looking to do another TPE trip soon and going to HND/CTS next month.
It's not much of a pleasure to do DL to Asia. KAL isn't inspiring either but I'll see on my CTS-ICN-SFO flight soon in J.
#101
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Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 41,988
Well I grew up with Northwest Orient flying them regularly to get to TPE since I was 10 months old.
NW was the Asian jewel with only United being with a similar original network at NRT.
Delta basically ruined the Asian market, removing key destinations that were very important to DL/NW customers (TPE, BKK, HKG, KIX, etc), making the product inferior to the competition (no HND lounge options, the above J service complaints, etc)....it seemed clear to me, that they let the people that ran the Pacific business go and they didn't know how to make it work with a disjointed strategy. They have a few domestic code shares (NH to CTS for example). But certainly they could have done a lot more with their ST and non-ST partners to help make up for some of the changes (like NRT/HND connection to TPE (and maybe other destinations in Taiwan) on China Airlines (CI).
I feel everyones frustrations as I'm looking to do another TPE trip soon and going to HND/CTS next month.
It's not much of a pleasure to do DL to Asia. KAL isn't inspiring either but I'll see on my CTS-ICN-SFO flight soon in J.
NW was the Asian jewel with only United being with a similar original network at NRT.
Delta basically ruined the Asian market, removing key destinations that were very important to DL/NW customers (TPE, BKK, HKG, KIX, etc), making the product inferior to the competition (no HND lounge options, the above J service complaints, etc)....it seemed clear to me, that they let the people that ran the Pacific business go and they didn't know how to make it work with a disjointed strategy. They have a few domestic code shares (NH to CTS for example). But certainly they could have done a lot more with their ST and non-ST partners to help make up for some of the changes (like NRT/HND connection to TPE (and maybe other destinations in Taiwan) on China Airlines (CI).
I feel everyones frustrations as I'm looking to do another TPE trip soon and going to HND/CTS next month.
It's not much of a pleasure to do DL to Asia. KAL isn't inspiring either but I'll see on my CTS-ICN-SFO flight soon in J.
#102
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I can't and won't waste money just because it's OPM. I'm expected to be reasonable about business travel and plus it all comes from my own travel budgets or is directly reimbursed from some organization whose rules I must follow.
BTW, you do realize that a regular taxi to/from NRT is several hundred dollars and even more for hotel car service, don't you? That receipt could be hard to explain in normal circumstances.
BTW, you do realize that a regular taxi to/from NRT is several hundred dollars and even more for hotel car service, don't you? That receipt could be hard to explain in normal circumstances.
#103
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Join Date: Jun 2005
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I can't and won't waste money just because it's OPM. I'm expected to be reasonable about business travel and plus it all comes from my own travel budgets or is directly reimbursed from some organization whose rules I must follow.
BTW, you do realize that a regular taxi to/from NRT is several hundred dollars and even more for hotel car service, don't you? That receipt could be hard to explain in normal circumstances.
BTW, you do realize that a regular taxi to/from NRT is several hundred dollars and even more for hotel car service, don't you? That receipt could be hard to explain in normal circumstances.
#104
Join Date: Dec 2008
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- TPAC JVs were not a thing in 2007. The only way NW would in 2019 be able to maintain their 2007 TYO presence is if they had managed to sign a JV with JL or NH.
- HND TPAC to the US was not a thing, with impact as already discussed upthread.
- NW had itself ordered 787s with the intent of overflying NRT.
#105
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Plan B. I wouldn't want to be counting on China over the next 5 or 10 years. It's very unstable. All those rich kids who came over here to American universities, studied, used Facebook and Google for the first time, and then went back to communist China will eventually want more than they have now. The crackdown on religious exercise, particularly Christianity, and Beijing's anti-Taiwan rhetoric of late are signs that things are unstable over there.