3Cforme

Oh, so you're thinking he's a misogynist, too?

The people arguing they'll fly only foreign (and specifically Asian) carriers ought to understand the labor practices they're supporting. Is that the work/career environment they want for their sisters and daughters, to be treated as eye candy and then discarded before age 40?

flyerCO

While I've had issues with pvn, they are far from a troll. Also I have a feeling your assumption about sensible posters is way off bat. OP makes a valid point, then undercuts it with the whole age thing.

sdadept

I'm with you on that. Once Diamond ceased being worth going for I just purchase J on whatever the best carrier was. There is some REALLY good business product out there on other airlines and I've had some amazing experiences now that I don't worry about carrier anymore. If I'm dropping $11k on a J fare, the service better be spectacular.

MSPeconomist

I think it's more like age 30.....and yet in some of these same cultures, there's a tradition of extreme respect for one's elders.

jdrtravel

Age does not need to be a factor in this if DL would simply enforce service standards. Perhaps on the long and high yield routes they need to start placing some secret shopper type of manager who can audit the inflight services.

bsktpdlr

I completely agree with this perspective. Last year we were on the last ATL/DXB flight in Delta One. Given their age, it is likely the flight attendants were all senior employees - is that politically correct enough for you all? They had employment seniority which allowed them to outbid the less senior for what is undoubtedly an easier gig. (probably getting paid for the return trip with no return flight to work) One of the crew was too short to close the overhead bins. I wonder if she would have been strong enough to open the door in an emergency. As I recall, another didn't provide silverware for the meal and yet another brought bread around to passengers that hadn't yet been served meals.

Seniority is not usually an issue and so long as an employee is able to meet the standards which should apply to all then I don't care about their age. There are thousands of people applying to get just a few jobs at Delta, they don't need to keep the substandard among their ranks, regardless of age. A person's performance that potentially impacts safety or the quality of service I receive is my primary concern regardless of the employee's age.

Am I a senior employee? Yes I am and I have to meet performance standards. If I don't then I will be replaced. I am not confusing apathy with seniority - the OP indicated that the senior employees didn't seem to care. Delta's response should be the same to crewmembers regardless of their age. The unions are also a player in this situation. In many cases, Delta is unable to act in their own best interest due to the interference created by the unions representing the employees. The unions need to be sending the message to their members that if you don't perform, the union can't protect them. Not likely to happen.

On a flight from NRT/LAX earlier this month, one FA was very loudly announcing that she had 40 years of seniority at every opportunity. In one episode she was talking to people lined up for the washroom and carried on like someone that didn't enjoy her job anymore.

Employment seniority should not be the primary criteria in determining who gets to work the long haul flights. I'd much rather have someone that wants to be there working my flight. Quality of service should be an equal part of the equation. It seems to me foreign carriers have figured this out. Think about how many galley conversations you have heard on Delta which involve complaining about work compared to those on foreign carriers.

NotHamSarnie

Exactly. It's not a question of being ageist, it's a question of company policy (awarding the easier gig to more senior employees regardless of competence) affecting the customer experience in a negative way. I suggested to the OP that s/he remove the bit about the age of the FAs because it sounded ageist but I (and I'm sure everyone on this board) knew exactly what was implied by the comment about the age of the FAs. In most jobs you become more senior by performing more ably or taking on supervisory or leadership roles, but in some (e.g., FAs, teachers) all you have to do is survive, taking on no extra responsibilities over the years, and topping out on your skills and knowledge after a few years on the job. Yet these more senior employees get more pay and, in the case of DL, a cushier time, than their younger counterparts, with no benefit to the customer and in many cases a downside in the form of jaded FAs (or teachers!). And don't get me started on the talk in the galleys about company policy, vacations, bla bla bla. Just do your job already!

pvn

So you're not ageist either, you just think the older FAs suck at their jobs. Story checks out.

One thing you're correct about, we all knew exactly what the OP meant.

pvn

What do you think about older pilots? They become senior the same way, just by putting in their time. They get paid more than the new kids and they get the cushy routes. Are they lazy and entitled, or just the FAs?

SSF556

Not a fair comparison....pilots do not interact with the customer....the FA good or bad is the face of the flying experience. The ATL-JNB Business class experience is lacking even before you throw in senior FAs who do not care about the customer experience. It is an overpriced experience...dollars and miles. I have done the flight once and will never use my $$$/miles again for that experience. Will route through AMS or CDG.

In regards to 10,000 miles...that is a slap in the face. I was recently given 10,000 miles on a flight from MIA to ATL because the entertainment screen was broken.

pvn

It is 100% fair. The poster I posed that question to claims that the way those employees gain seniority leads them to be lazy and do a crap job. The pilots are ranked for seniority the same way, effectively.

Are you suggesting that lazy entitled pilots are not a problem because you don't have to see them???

jdrtravel

Delta flight attendants are not unionized. So there goes every conservatives favorite theory about the impact of unions on customer service.

ijgordon

A pilot can't be "lazy." His or her job is to fly the plane safely. I don't think anyone would disagree with that. That said, pilots certainly can be entitled (and it seems to be particularly the case on Air France, when it comes to their spouses...). But correct, a passenger rarely interacts with a pilot, so it's borderline irrelevant.

There can be reasonable disagreement over the actual job of a flight attendant. They might argue they're there "primarily for your safety". Many pax expect them to be there for their comfort/service as well. If the job definition is really just the former, then the FA can be lazy and get away with it, but the pax perception clearly suffers.

ijgordon

Um, well, it sounds to me (and I have no specific inside knowledge) that the "threat" of unionization is having the same impact as actually being unionized. So there goes your debunking of the theory, no?

Out of curiosity, what do you think is the reason DL doesn't seem willing/able to enforce service standards, as you posted earlier?

pvn

Of course pilots can be lazy. They may face different consequences but we all know there have been cases where a pilot didn't complete a checklist or forgot to turn a knob or whatever. But this is all orthogonal to the point.

The claim is that FAs react a certain way to the method by which their seniority is determined. My question is IF that is actually true, why don't pilots react the same way? The fact that FAs are customer-facing and pilots aren't doesn't explain it.