Non-hub to Non-Hub nonstop flights
Jun 5, 2017, 11:50 am
#46
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Not sure what's unusual about it. HNL is the connection point where one connects to flights to US48 from these flights, or the stopover for some (e.g. NGO-HNL continues on to LAX, i.e. it is NGO-LAX with a stopover in HNL). So, at least for Japan flights, HNL sure operates as a hub for DL, at least in terms of practical operations, flight timing, etc.
And many airlines have such flights. Usually to major/popular destinations. E.g. KE HNL-NRT, CI HNL-NRT and occasionally also HNL-KIX (a route that is continually greatly undeserved, now that DL only has once daily 767 vs earlier 747 + A330 during busy season 2x daily, though JL is picking up the slacking by adding a second daily KIX-HNL, now 1x777 and 1x787, as has Air Asia X also), Air Asia HNL-KIX-KUL, and so on.
And many airlines have such flights. Usually to major/popular destinations. E.g. KE HNL-NRT, CI HNL-NRT and occasionally also HNL-KIX (a route that is continually greatly undeserved, now that DL only has once daily 767 vs earlier 747 + A330 during busy season 2x daily, though JL is picking up the slacking by adding a second daily KIX-HNL, now 1x777 and 1x787, as has Air Asia X also), Air Asia HNL-KIX-KUL, and so on.
The Japan-Hawaii routes are healthy, but having flown them in the past they're all about Japanese vacationers with the occasional Hawaiian resident mixed in. Certainly didn't seem heavy on connecting traffic...
Jun 5, 2017, 11:53 am
#47
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One fun example of point to point flying is found for CES, when Delta traditionally adds extra capacity from Asia direct into LAS. As NRT gets drawn down, it will be interesting to see how Delta tries to capture this market in the future...
Jun 5, 2017, 12:06 pm
#48
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Unfortunately, HNL is never going to be a first choice to serve premium cabin connecting traffic to the mainland as long as there's no Delta One experience. The flight times are also kinda awkward. Last week on my way to KIX, I chose to overfly Japan to ICN and then backtrack on KE, which was a much more sane and comfortable routing.
The Japan-Hawaii routes are healthy, but having flown them in the past they're all about Japanese vacationers with the occasional Hawaiian resident mixed in. Certainly didn't seem heavy on connecting traffic...
The Japan-Hawaii routes are healthy, but having flown them in the past they're all about Japanese vacationers with the occasional Hawaiian resident mixed in. Certainly didn't seem heavy on connecting traffic...
But yes, the DL int'l business class service (a.k.a. "Delta One") service is truly non-competitive and more compares with other airlines premium economy, so until DL improves it's in flight service offering, those who care and fly paid J (a very small minority of pax) will choose the superior in-flight service and perhaps different routing of JL, NH, and UA instead, I agree. Then again, anyone would hardly choose DL for a true "premium" experience (DL can't be even bothered to install proper curtains to keep the light out of galleys out as every other airline does; the cheapness of DL all throughout truly never ceases to amaze). But, let's put things in perspective, majority of pax don't fly paid J, so anything to do with "Delta One" is hardly a deciding factor for the vast majority of pax. It's mostly the massive cuts to flight frequencies and aircraft size cuts, resulting in over 50% of capacity cuts from Japan to HNL vs. just a few years ago, that is going to make less and less pax fly DL...while other airlines like JL, D7, HA, etc. pick up the pax that DL has chosen to forego.
Jun 5, 2017, 1:29 pm
#50
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A couple others from RDU that I didn't see mentioned yet (or at least didn't see):
RDU - BDL
RDU - LAX (if you don't consider LAX a hub)
RDU - BNA (coming June 12th)
RDU - PHL (I believe just M-F)
RDU - BDL
RDU - LAX (if you don't consider LAX a hub)
RDU - BNA (coming June 12th)
RDU - PHL (I believe just M-F)
Jun 5, 2017, 5:54 pm
#53
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Economic indeed. When USAir abandoned it's hub at PIT, the only international service was to Toronto and seasonally to Mexico, I believe. A huge initiative was undertaken to increase non-stop destinations, and there was a city/county grant (something like that, I forget) to establish that route to CDG. I don't know the exact details, but they renew the flight every year (it's seasonal).
Getting a seasonal DL 752 to CDG should not come as some sort of surprise. In a few weeks year-round service to KEF and seasonal to FRA start on other airlines.
The PIT-CDG service was started with a grant from local stakeholders. If I recall, they paid some money the first year but performance met expectations the second year and they have not paid anything since (unlike BWI which continuously pays BA). We are now in our ninth year of the service (8 without taxpayer support if I recall correctly.)
Jun 5, 2017, 6:20 pm
#54
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Depends. Sometimes it's been seemingly most of pax connecting to LAX (big American group), for example.
But yes, the DL int'l business class service (a.k.a. "Delta One") service is truly non-competitive and more compares with other airlines premium economy, so until DL improves it's in flight service offering, those who care and fly paid J (a very small minority of pax) will choose the superior in-flight service and perhaps different routing of JL, NH, and UA instead, I agree. Then again, anyone would hardly choose DL for a true "premium" experience (DL can't be even bothered to install proper curtains to keep the light out of galleys out as every other airline does; the cheapness of DL all throughout truly never ceases to amaze). But, let's put things in perspective, majority of pax don't fly paid J, so anything to do with "Delta One" is hardly a deciding factor for the vast majority of pax. It's mostly the massive cuts to flight frequencies and aircraft size cuts, resulting in over 50% of capacity cuts from Japan to HNL vs. just a few years ago, that is going to make less and less pax fly DL...while other airlines like JL, D7, HA, etc. pick up the pax that DL has chosen to forego.
But yes, the DL int'l business class service (a.k.a. "Delta One") service is truly non-competitive and more compares with other airlines premium economy, so until DL improves it's in flight service offering, those who care and fly paid J (a very small minority of pax) will choose the superior in-flight service and perhaps different routing of JL, NH, and UA instead, I agree. Then again, anyone would hardly choose DL for a true "premium" experience (DL can't be even bothered to install proper curtains to keep the light out of galleys out as every other airline does; the cheapness of DL all throughout truly never ceases to amaze). But, let's put things in perspective, majority of pax don't fly paid J, so anything to do with "Delta One" is hardly a deciding factor for the vast majority of pax. It's mostly the massive cuts to flight frequencies and aircraft size cuts, resulting in over 50% of capacity cuts from Japan to HNL vs. just a few years ago, that is going to make less and less pax fly DL...while other airlines like JL, D7, HA, etc. pick up the pax that DL has chosen to forego.
Jun 5, 2017, 8:13 pm
#55
Join Date: Sep 2009
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ill agree its not the best J prpduct out. However its hardly non-competitive. One you know youl get a decent hard prpduct with lay flat, all aisle access. Not something guaranteed with a lot of aurlines even today. Those that do offer it, pften pack you in like a sardine. Youll get a good meal, and in general decent alcohol. The biggest fault i have with DL compared to others are the lounges.
Personally I'll still prefer KE 2-2-2 lie-flats (as long as I can get an aisle seat in the middle section, or upstairs on the 747) or JL (lie flats and direct aisle) to DL, simply for the better in-flight service, things such as lavatories always cleaned up, plenty of toothbrushes, mouthwash, and cups (DL has neither of these things) in the lavatory at all times, curtain to galley closed, FAs who are generally quiet and let you sleep, etc...all things missing on DL, unfortunately, where the culture is much less customer-centered as it is at most other airlines, and where the attention to detail like lack of a non-transparent curtain between galley make a real difference to pax. It's the soft touches that DL is missing.
Jun 5, 2017, 8:50 pm
#56
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Jun 5, 2017, 9:14 pm
#57
Join Date: Jan 2008
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Casual observers such as myself are often surprised when they see certain nonstop routes and wonder what the underlying motivation or justification for the airline operating them.
Last year I was surprised when DL originated SJC/LAS nonstops. Today, while researching a trip for one of my clients, I came across another DL nonstop - RDU/IND.
I'm sure there are folks here who understand the rationale for two RDU/IND nonstops per day and I would be grateful if someone could explain what generates sufficient traffic to justify this route. For example, is there a large company that has offices in both cities and is willing to subsidize the route? Thanks.
Last year I was surprised when DL originated SJC/LAS nonstops. Today, while researching a trip for one of my clients, I came across another DL nonstop - RDU/IND.
I'm sure there are folks here who understand the rationale for two RDU/IND nonstops per day and I would be grateful if someone could explain what generates sufficient traffic to justify this route. For example, is there a large company that has offices in both cities and is willing to subsidize the route? Thanks.
Last edited by 18sas; Jun 5, 2017 at 9:32 pm
Jun 5, 2017, 9:36 pm
#58
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If you read the promotion inserts of Sky magazine, you'll realize that every mid-size midwestern city was once a dingy [ steel-making / slaughterhouse ] town but has cleaned its act up and is now a burgeoning [ e-commerce / big pharma / biotech ] hub that's been dubbed [ "Silicon Prairie" / "Silicon Plain" / "Silicon Cornstalks" / "Silicon Frozen Tundra" ].
Jun 6, 2017, 4:55 am
#59
Join Date: Sep 2007
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PIT (and the US hub) supported year-round service for many years (decades for some) on US to CDG, LGW, and FRA in addition to TWA and BA to LGW on 762's, 333's, and 742's.
Getting a seasonal DL 752 to CDG should not come as some sort of surprise. In a few weeks year-round service to KEF and seasonal to FRA start on other airlines.
The PIT-CDG service was started with a grant from local stakeholders. If I recall, they paid some money the first year but performance met expectations the second year and they have not paid anything since (unlike BWI which continuously pays BA). We are now in our ninth year of the service (8 without taxpayer support if I recall correctly.)
Getting a seasonal DL 752 to CDG should not come as some sort of surprise. In a few weeks year-round service to KEF and seasonal to FRA start on other airlines.
The PIT-CDG service was started with a grant from local stakeholders. If I recall, they paid some money the first year but performance met expectations the second year and they have not paid anything since (unlike BWI which continuously pays BA). We are now in our ninth year of the service (8 without taxpayer support if I recall correctly.)
PIT is a decent sized city, but hardly a place Delta focuses on...take the lounge (or lack thereof) as an example. I think they use space in the AA lounge for those in D1.
I am surprised with KEF though. FRA offers a lot of connection opportunities, just not as much on DL/SkyTeam
Jun 6, 2017, 11:40 am
#60
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I'm sure PIT did support those routes well...when PIT was a hub.
PIT is a decent sized city, but hardly a place Delta focuses on...take the lounge (or lack thereof) as an example. I think they use space in the AA lounge for those in D1.
I am surprised with KEF though. FRA offers a lot of connection opportunities, just not as much on DL/SkyTeam
PIT is a decent sized city, but hardly a place Delta focuses on...take the lounge (or lack thereof) as an example. I think they use space in the AA lounge for those in D1.
I am surprised with KEF though. FRA offers a lot of connection opportunities, just not as much on DL/SkyTeam