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Certain Partner J Awards to Europe now 85,000 miles?

Certain Partner J Awards to Europe now 85,000 miles?

Old Apr 8, 17, 10:03 am
  #61  
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Originally Posted by RealHJ View Post
(bolding mine)

+1 on that

UA has continued to impress me (positively) time and time again over the last 1.5 years that I've been flying more on UA. UA agents, be it in India call center or US, really actually care about the customers and will do whatever it takes to make the customer happy. Without asking, I've had four award change fees waived (though I changed routing and dates), when reservations can't fix a problem, management will step in and get it taken care of, and in irrops UA also will do all it can to get you to your destination ASAP, no matter the cost to them (unlike penny-pinching Dullta). It's not perfect. The United Clubs are dreary, and even the Polaris Lounge at ORD is disappointing (poorly designed, no usable workspace at all) and super crowded at peak times. The 2-4-2 J seating is well below par. But, all that is secondary. What makes UA "less terrible" is that UA is clearly out to impress each and every customer and will do whatever it takes for their customers, regardless of status and ticket type (award or revenue). So, while the product (both lounges and in flight) may be far from the best, at UA I feel much more valued as a customer as a nobody (no status), than I do as a DM at DL overall (where things can go either very well or outright horrible, and you never know which way it's going to be). And it's human nature to do business with a company where you feel valued as a customer - so UA really has got that right (seems to have copied what NW did, but that DL and its deeply ingrained anti-customer and massive self ego attitude totally ruined).
I will say the times I had to fly UA last year the soft product is incredibly good. Friendly staff (for the most part), and I did sit in F on 2 of my 3 flights with them last year and the FC meals were actually really good. They had a gellato "sundae" bar cart the FA brought around which was good too. I was quite impressed with that, the hard product still has a bit of work though.

People at UA actually act like they want to be at work now Overall it seems like a more pleasant experience at UA now then at DL or AA.
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Old Apr 8, 17, 10:07 am
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I booked SEA - ICN - DPS yesterday on KE + GA for 80K on the phone, so not all partner awards are priced higher. Hopefully new pricing is a glitch?
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Old Apr 8, 17, 10:24 am
  #63  
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Originally Posted by AntonS View Post
I booked SEA - ICN - DPS yesterday on KE + GA for 80K on the phone, so not all partner awards are priced higher. Hopefully new pricing is a glitch?
Unfortunately no

https://thepointsguy.com/2017/04/del...ards-devalued/

DL confirmed to TPG that this is in fact true. (Only when the TPG reached out direct to them) Guess they were hoping nobody noticed since there is no award chart.
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Old Apr 8, 17, 10:51 am
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Originally Posted by krazykanuck View Post
And that's about it! Plus a few stereotypical vacation locations in the Caribbean.
Southwest's ticketing system also tends to break if you are coming from or going to an outstation. There are entire months on their current calendar where I either can't book a flight from ECP to SFO or SFO to ECP without doing some sort of convoluted multiple ticket purchase. If I want to visit my parents in GRR, no tickets either way between there and ECP for the entire months of September and October without the multiple ticket route that usually makes it stupidly expensive compared to the legacy carriers.
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Old Apr 8, 17, 11:29 am
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A way to get around is to add a DL sector, ICN-LAX-LAS (35k in Y 80k in J) instead of ICN-LAX only (40k/95k) and not take the last segment. Would work only for US bound, one-way, though.

Will there be any consequence?
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Old Apr 8, 17, 12:13 pm
  #66  
 
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Originally Posted by bobbybrown View Post
A way to get around is to add a DL sector, ICN-LAX-LAS (35k in Y 80k in J) instead of ICN-LAX only (40k/95k) and not take the last segment. Would work only for US bound, one-way, though.

Will there be any consequence?
I would think you might get stuck if IRROPS - for example if you were rerouted ICN-SFO-LAS or on the nonstop LAX-LAS. But the frequency of flights from LAS to LAX would make it less of a problem than some other routings.
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Old Apr 8, 17, 12:14 pm
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Originally Posted by LBJ View Post
While this has traditionally been how they priced partner awards, I have seen nothing to indicate it was actually contractual. Further, this is not exactly new, DL has had two award levels on VS flights for a number of months now. We've also seen opposite examples where partner metal flights have priced below the "lowest" level to be found on DL metal (in particular flights to AU).
I noticed the recent VS practice, but chalked it up to VS not being in Skyteam.
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Old Apr 8, 17, 12:49 pm
  #68  
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Originally Posted by hfly View Post
Good question Beckles, AFAIK it has only increased a small amount among the traditional US and European trunk carriers, however there has been an uptick from the ME3+Turkish, not just from their hubs into North America, but with these 5th freedom routes they have been starting. but what it has meant that all that connecting traffic from the Asian Sub-continent and Middle East that once existed is gone, not to mention from even some Eastern European destinations now go through these places rather than Europe. Look at it this way: A decade or so ago TK had one flight a day to JFK, today depending on season and political mood, They fly to 11 North American destinations with up to 15 flights a day, when you consider that they also have flights to South America, whereby once upon a time people would connect through Europe or the US for such flights, and that all the ME3 also offer these flights, you see the issue.

When one ALSO factors in all the Norwegian, Wizz, WoW, Level, etc that is being thrown into the marketplace, it is a lot of capacity, not on one particular route or hub in particular, but it adds up..........which is why most of the last year, except absolute peak times, one could get sub $500 RT fares from Europe to the US, and very often sub $2200 Biz fares from numerous destinations on all major carriers, often with little or no advance purchase restrictions.

It is against this backdrop that Delta is (stupidly in my opinion) deciding to kill their SM members through these changes.
So the short answer is you only have anecdotal evidence based on your perception of competition? How about the fact that while there are new airlines, others like Alitalia and BMI are gone? Just with the Delta JV, is the capacity of the JV really more than what Delta, Northwest, Virgin Atlantic, Air France, and KLM had combined ten years ago?

How about your statement about load factors being lower, what's that based on? Surely you have numbers for that?
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Old Apr 8, 17, 2:51 pm
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DL's Transatlantic load factors are a matter of public record, they have been trending down the last 2-3 years, even as they have tried to reduce capacity, furthermore their JV TA partners have NOT lowered capacity at all, and their load factors have decreased. Beckles, I do not understand your examples? BMI?? BMI maybe had 2 Transatlantic flights tops perhaps 12 years ago, for less than 2 years. AZ is still flying and has actually more TA seats than it did 5 years ago, however the FCO and MXP mix has changed??!!

You want a decade of DL,NW,VS,AF and KL, then vs. now?

Well in a solid decade, I would say that Delta (with NW) has about 10% more flights/seats etc than it did a decade ago. VS has a bit less, then again some of that was rationalization with DL. AF and KL are about 15% up in capacity TA.

Regarding Delta capacity, yes you are right, they now own 49% of VS, so that does add a lot of seats compared to what they had before, as far as I know that while VS has some rationalization and streamlining their capacity, they are pretty flat the last two years.

As for my perception about the competition, considering that the US big three have been raising hell about the ME3 the last 2-3 years and they have done everything they can to keep Norwegian out of the US (and failed), I really do not think its just my perception and anecdotal evidence that is in play here, you are welcome to go read the voluminous documentation commissioned by the big three regarding these subjects.
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Old Apr 8, 17, 2:59 pm
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Glad I burned my last 250k Skypesos last year. Major devaluation
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Old Apr 8, 17, 4:27 pm
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Originally Posted by Beckles View Post
So the short answer is you only have anecdotal evidence based on your perception of competition? How about the fact that while there are new airlines, others like Alitalia and BMI are gone? Just with the Delta JV, is the capacity of the JV really more than what Delta, Northwest, Virgin Atlantic, Air France, and KLM had combined ten years ago?

How about your statement about load factors being lower, what's that based on? Surely you have numbers for that?
Alitalia is still around. BMI was taken over by BA.

hfly has the story correct on TATL: airfares in USD terms are down as a result of the changed supply and demand picture, but the price of tickets in airline miles/points is the worst it's been for at least 2 decades.
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Old Apr 8, 17, 6:34 pm
  #72  
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Not complete yet

Last edited by hfly; Apr 8, 17 at 6:35 pm Reason: Working on it
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Old Apr 8, 17, 6:54 pm
  #73  
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I only used the Delta JV's as an example, to remind you of where we started ...
Originally Posted by hfly View Post
I must add that capacity across all Transatlantic carriers has increased and load factor lessened.
Originally Posted by Beckles View Post
How much has capacity increased and load factors decreased?
I simply asked how much capacity has increased and load factors decreased 'across all Transatlantic carriers', because I was surprised that is true, but if you don't have actual data to support that, just say so. I would think consolidation and the various JV's would have resulted in less capacity, not more despite the other factors you mentioned (ME3's and ULCC's).

For Delta their Transatlantic capacity is down from 56.6 billion ASM in 2009 to 49.2 billion ASM in 2016, their load factors also decreased from 80.7% to 80.2%. I honestly don't have time to chase down every other Transatlantic carrier ...
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Old Apr 8, 17, 6:59 pm
  #74  
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DL ATLANTIC Load Factor Revenue Capacity Yield

2015-16 -6.8% -6% -.8% -2.4%
2014-15 -2.1% -4.8% +3.2% -5.3%
2013-14 -.8% +3.0% +.9% +3.0%
2012-13 +1.2% +3.0% -1.0% +2.0%
2011-12 +2.8% -1.0% -7% +3.0%
2010-11 -2.1% +9% +2% +10%
2009-10 +2.3% +18% -3% +18%

KL ATLANTIC Load Factor Capacity Revenue
2015-16 +.5% +3.4% +3.3%
2014-15 +.3% +1.9% +1.4%
2013-14 -.2% +4.2% +4.4%
2012-13 -2.7% -.1% -.3%
2011-12 -3% +10.2% +7.0%

KL did not publish numbers broken down this way before 2011, and only had general Global numbers without North America built in. Notice however the key period of 11-13 for both DL and KL, DL dropped capacity, but KL picked it up. AF did as well, but frankly cannot be hassled to look through their numbers right now.

BTW, For VS one can only really find such broken down numbers (similar from 2013-2016) one sees about a 8% drop in capacity overall in their system, BUT a 6-7% increase in TATL over that period, with a cumulative load factor that has decreased only about 6.2% during that time.

So since the great synergies with AF/KL/AZ, the JV and all that we can see that DL has increased capacity, but that Load Factors have indeed decreased, as have passenger revenue and yield may have cumulatively been up one or two percent ( Really KL is the only one that has kept up )

Now you can add the fact that most Western European Airlines have INCREASED their TATL flying over that time (net.....yes we may have lost 2 BMI flights, but have gained at least 6 BA TATL flights in their place), then add in all your lowcosts and ME3 and TK, and then you can see how it is RIDICULOUS that while they are blowing chunks filling the cabin with revenue passengers that it is ridiculous to sting us with any such devaluations.
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Old Apr 8, 17, 7:06 pm
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No, you used BMI, which was never a TA factor as an example, and said that AZ is "gone" when they are very much alive and have more flights across the Atlantic currently than they have had in a decade.

Yeah, their load factor was down by 6.8% but they only dropped capacity by .8%, big problem.

And the year before LF was down 2.1% and they increased capacity by 3.2%
The year before LF was down .8% and they increased capacity .9%

You saw where I spoke about "recent years", "over the last 2-3 years" etc. Right?
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