Two round trips on the same ticket

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Old May 29, 17, 8:02 pm
  #31  
LBJ
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Originally Posted by bmw303 View Post
looks like Delta closed the loophole.


"Travel from one origin city to the same destination is not allowed more than once on the same ticket. Please book the trips separately or call Delta Reservations Sales at 800-221-1212. #1031R "
This only happen's when you do the multi-city search on delta.com. Goggle Flights will still construct the nested fares and bring them up on delta.com. On OP's itin, nested V fares price at $572.95 total, while 4 one-way T fares are $904.80 (savings of $331.85).

Last edited by LBJ; May 29, 17 at 8:10 pm
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Old May 29, 17, 10:49 pm
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Originally Posted by LBJ View Post
This only happen's when you do the multi-city search on delta.com. Goggle Flights will still construct the nested fares and bring them up on delta.com. On OP's itin, nested V fares price at $572.95 total, while 4 one-way T fares are $904.80 (savings of $331.85).
Yes, but will Delta issue the ticket? There is a time lag between getting a price and confirmation number, and getting a ticket number. During that time, Delta can reject it and say Google messed up.
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Old May 29, 17, 11:05 pm
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Kevin AA View Post
Yes, but will Delta issue the ticket? There is a time lag between getting a price and confirmation number, and getting a ticket number. During that time, Delta can reject it and say Google messed up.
Google sends you to delta.com to purchase. It simply tells delta what flights, what dates, and what fare.basis. The purchase and ticket are instant on delta.com.
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Old May 30, 17, 1:12 am
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Back in the day, I was flying MSP-LEX-MSP weekly for months. That fare was a lot more expensive than LEX-MSP-LEX so I booked a one way MSP-LEX and then booked months of flights that were LEX-MSP-LEX with a final LEX-MSP one way.

As far as nested ticketing, I have booked nearly all of my international trips out of cities like ORD, LAX, and JFK with a few others as well. I've then booked a second flight that had those international flights nested within and I have been more than upfront with Delta about it and have had no issues. I almost always ask them to check my luggage all the way through to the second ticket destination and I tell them how I got such a sweet deal out of the other city. No problem!
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Old May 30, 17, 6:24 am
  #35  
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Originally Posted by yohanson View Post
Back in the day, I was flying MSP-LEX-MSP weekly for months. That fare was a lot more expensive than LEX-MSP-LEX so I booked a one way MSP-LEX and then booked months of flights that were LEX-MSP-LEX with a final LEX-MSP one way.

As far as nested ticketing, I have booked nearly all of my international trips out of cities like ORD, LAX, and JFK with a few others as well. I've then booked a second flight that had those international flights nested within and I have been more than upfront with Delta about it and have had no issues. I almost always ask them to check my luggage all the way through to the second ticket destination and I tell them how I got such a sweet deal out of the other city. No problem!
You are mixing up different kinds of nesting. The second instance where you are booking an AAA-BBB RT and a BBB-CCC RT within that trip is perfectly fine. What we are talking about is booking an AAA-BBB RT trip and a reverse BBB-AAA RT within that trip where both trips include Saturday night stays to get cheaper fares (rather than booking two AAA-BBB non-overlapping RT's that do not include Saturday night stays and thus have higher fares).

Your first example is closer to what we are talking about. LEX-MSP-LEX was not really any cheaper than MSP-LEX-MSP (domestic fares are the same in both directions). The reason those LEX-MSP-LEX fares were cheaper was because they included a Saturday night stay while your MSP-LEX-MSP trips did not. This type of nesting is what DL can have problems with. DL refers to it as "back-to-back ticketing" in their contract of carriage and T&C's --

http://www.delta.com/content/www/en_...trictions.html

"Back-to-back ticketing - combining multiple overlapping round-trip tickets to circumvent Saturday or other overnight stay requirements"

You might claim that since your MSP-LEX and LEX-MSP tickets were booked as one-way's instead of as an overlapping RT this technically does not violate the above (I'm guessing those one-way's were pretty expensive).

Last edited by LBJ; May 30, 17 at 6:33 am
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Old May 30, 17, 8:18 am
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Originally Posted by LBJ View Post

You might claim that since your MSP-LEX and LEX-MSP tickets were booked as one-way's instead of as an overlapping RT this technically does not violate the above (I'm guessing those one-way's were pretty expensive).
The one ways weren't that expensive. They were slightly more than half a RT, if I remember correctly. If I remember correctly, they were all booked on NWA.
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Old May 30, 17, 4:52 pm
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Originally Posted by exwannabe View Post
EDIT: In your example, it you did this with an intent to violate a minimum stay restriction, then yes, you violated the COC. But that is not what LBJ was discussing.
There's no way to prove or disprove intent. Person A books in my example books one AAA-BBB-AAA for June 5-16 (includes Saturday night stay) and then books BBB-AAA-BBB for June 9-11 (also includes Saturday night stay). Person A does this to circumvent fare rules. Person B goes on a business trip, paid for by company. Same dates & locations. Pays the same fares. Person B buys BBB-AAA-BBB for return home on June 9-11 to return for personal reasons. Explain how you determine Person A's intent from Person B's intent.

Also explain how Person B should handle the airfare instead. If Person B buys AAA-BBB-AAA for June 5-9 and then AAA-BBB-AAA, this becomes more expensive, either to Person B or to the company. It may even prohibit Person B from being able to come home. And how would Person B handle this if their company/organization had contract fares that they couldn't buy for personal travel?
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Old Jun 2, 17, 10:15 am
  #38  
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Originally Posted by flyerCO View Post
Again as long as it's on one ticket no violation has occurred. Nested tickets requires just that tickets (plural).

You can in fact combine a fare that requires RT together as one-ways in one ticket. Have done this for years. As long as the rules don't have any restrictions on combing them you're fine. Even then as issued on one ticket there's nothing DL can do.
Was just going through the CoC today and noticed this wording --

Back to Back Ticketing - The issuance, purchase or usage of flight coupons from two or more tickets issued at round trip fares, or the combination of two or more round trip fares end to end on the same ticket for the purpose of circumventing minimum stay requirements.

Notice that it covers both separate tickets and fares on the same ticket. It's more broad than the ticketing T&C's version.
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Old Jun 2, 17, 1:24 pm
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Originally Posted by ATOBTTR View Post
There's no way to prove or disprove intent. Person A books in my example books one AAA-BBB-AAA for June 5-16 (includes Saturday night stay) and then books BBB-AAA-BBB for June 9-11 (also includes Saturday night stay). Person A does this to circumvent fare rules. Person B goes on a business trip, paid for by company. Same dates & locations. Pays the same fares. Person B buys BBB-AAA-BBB for return home on June 9-11 to return for personal reasons. Explain how you determine Person A's intent from Person B's intent.

Also explain how Person B should handle the airfare instead. If Person B buys AAA-BBB-AAA for June 5-9 and then AAA-BBB-AAA, this becomes more expensive, either to Person B or to the company. It may even prohibit Person B from being able to come home. And how would Person B handle this if their company/organization had contract fares that they couldn't buy for personal travel?
I think the clear violation they are trying to prohibit is not this, but

A-B-A Mon-Mon
and
B-A-B Fri-Fri

when you really want
A-B-A Mon-Fri twice.

Pretty clear intent and prohibited. No way they would call you out on the one you mentioned- I did it many times while in the military on long travels.
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Old Jun 6, 17, 2:01 pm
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First, fascinating analysis, thanks for all of your input.

I did not take any side trips (no additional tickets to a different destination during the 60 days between LGA trips), but did wonder if a need came up what the result would be. Same with SDC, but that was unlikely given that there is just one direct flight and it was mid-day.

Originally Posted by bmw303 View Post
looks like Delta closed the loophole.

"Travel from one origin city to the same destination is not allowed more than once on the same ticket. Please book the trips separately or call Delta Reservations Sales at 800-221-1212. #1031R "

The error message quoted above appears on Delta.com when trying to book the fare (I got it on the website as well). I ended up successfully booking on the iOS Delta App.

Originally Posted by Kevin AA View Post
Apparently the Delta computer is pricing the first and last legs as one roundtrip (which is really cheap) and pricing the second and third legs as another roundtrip and then adding them together. If you look at the fare construction you will be able to figure it out (or post it and we can do it for you).
The fare construction per the confirmation email was:
Fare Details: FYV DL LGA155.35VEVNA0MQ DL FYV Q23.26 155.35VEVNA0MQ DL X/ATL DL LGA155.35VEVNA0MQ DL FYV155.35VEVNA0MQ USD644.66END ZP XNALGAXNAATLLGA XF XNA4.5LGA4.5ATL4.5LGA4.5

All legs were listed as V class.
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Old Jun 6, 17, 2:27 pm
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Originally Posted by thetoolman View Post
I was booking a flight from XNA to LGA direct for next month, but the price is very high for the W-F schedule I need. Playing around with the multi-city pricing I was able to successfully book XNA - LGA - XNA - LGA - XNA where the 2nd round trip is another meeting I have in May with what looks like a 60 day stopover at home in between. This 4-leg ticket priced out $30 less than the single round trip.

Unsurprisingly, this can't be booked on Delta.com but I booked it and got the ticket issued through the Delta iOS app. I have a receipt, C+ upgrade and chosen seats.

My questions:
  1. will Delta honor this ticket as I booked it?
  2. what happens if I try to book/fly another flight during the 60 day stopover?
  3. at what point will I find out if they decide not to honor it?
Good thinking!
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Old Jun 6, 17, 2:44 pm
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Originally Posted by LBJ View Post
You are mixing up different kinds of nesting. The second instance where you are booking an AAA-BBB RT and a BBB-CCC RT within that trip is perfectly fine. What we are talking about is booking an AAA-BBB RT trip and a reverse BBB-AAA RT within that trip where both trips include Saturday night stays to get cheaper fares (rather than booking two AAA-BBB non-overlapping RT's that do not include Saturday night stays and thus have higher fares).
So let's say ATL-AMS in J is $8K RT

JFK-AMS is only $3K RT

I book JFK-AMS RT and another ticket ATL-JFK for $1K in F (or $500 in Y for that matter)

Both tickets have Saturday night stays

Is that OK?

____________________

Another one:

Mileage run in Y FLL-SIN RT

Separate ticket ATL-FLL RT

No Saturday stay on either
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Old Jun 6, 17, 3:08 pm
  #43  
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Originally Posted by thetoolman View Post
First, fascinating analysis, thanks for all of your input.

I did not take any side trips (no additional tickets to a different destination during the 60 days between LGA trips), but did wonder if a need came up what the result would be. Same with SDC, but that was unlikely given that there is just one direct flight and it was mid-day.
You are not understanding the definition of a side trip in the fare rules (which is in the COMBINABILITY section). A side trip in this context is a trip within the same ticket, not on a different ticket. You were able to get the V fares because Google Flights constructed the ticket with the LGA-XNA-LGA fare as a side trip nested within your XNA-LGA-XNA fare. Both had Saturday night stays in them and thus met the Sat night stay requirement of the V fares. As I stated, many cheap X/V fares do not permit side trips combination and Google would not have been able to construct this ticket with these V fares if this had been the case. But because these V fares allow it, Goggle was able to ticket out the side trip fare construction on a single ticket. Note, however, that the CoC prohibits such constructions to get cheaper Sat night stay fares even if the fare rules allow side trips.

Last edited by LBJ; Jun 6, 17 at 3:30 pm
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Old Jun 6, 17, 3:19 pm
  #44  
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Originally Posted by dilbertsdaddy View Post
So let's say ATL-AMS in J is $8K RT

JFK-AMS is only $3K RT

I book JFK-AMS RT and another ticket ATL-JFK for $1K in F (or $500 in Y for that matter)

Both tickets have Saturday night stays

Is that OK?

____________________

Another one:

Mileage run in Y FLL-SIN RT

Separate ticket ATL-FLL RT

No Saturday stay on either
Both of these are fine since they are just a BBB-CCC RT ticket nested in an AAA-BBB ticket. It's only when you nest a BBB-AAA RT inside an AAA-BBB RT AND do it to get cheaper fares that require a Sat night or minimum stay. It's perfectly fine to book it nested like that if the fares you are booking do not have a Sat night/min stay requirement (although there isn't much reason to do it in that case since it won't save you any money).
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Old Jun 6, 17, 5:32 pm
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Originally Posted by LBJ View Post
You are not understanding the definition of a side trip in the fare rules (which is in the COMBINABILITY section). A side trip in this context is a trip within the same ticket, not on a different ticket. You were able to get the V fares because Google Flights constructed the ticket with the LGA-XNA-LGA fare as a side trip nested within your XNA-LGA-XNA fare. Both had Saturday night stays in them and thus met the Sat night stay requirement of the V fares. As I stated, many cheap X/V fares do not permit side trips combination and Google would not have been able to construct this ticket with these V fares if this had been the case. But because these V fares allow it, Goggle was able to ticket out the side trip fare construction on a single ticket. Note, however, that the CoC prohibits such constructions to get cheaper Sat night stay fares even if the fare rules allow side trips.
If Delta (the airline) complained that the ticket is invalid under the Delta Air Lines CoC, Delta (the airline) would have to file a complaint with Delta (the ticketing agent), right? i.e., some person wishing to fly on Delta (the airline) enters the city pairs and dates desired on Delta's (the ticketing agent) website, and then Delta (the airline) sells the person a ticket via Delta (the ticketing agent). It's 100% Delta's (the ticketing agent) fault if Delta (the ticketing agent) violates Delta's (the airline) rules. Delta has multiple personality disorder!
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