exwannabe

Disagree strongly. There are many airports where the 2 tickets will require you to clear full immigration due to the need to fetch bags post customs and possibly switch terminals. While a true connection (even across airlines) does not require this (or would have some process setup to avoid immigration).

As far it not stating you have to be on a single ticket, the rule you are looking at is from IATA, and by their definition "transit" must be on a single ticket.

That does not matter at all. It is the norm to not be asked for all required travel documentation at immigration. Proof of exiting a country is a very common case of this. Many countries have this, but is virtually never checked (at least for me).

The ticket break was at JNB. So yes, DL at JFK should have caught the problem.

This might actually have made it worse for the OP, they still would presumably have missed the flights, and might have had even a harder time getting DL to reboot it. Technically, DL would not owe them a free rebook, but likely would do so.

appleguru

I don't understand how skipping a flight on a separate airline makes the original carrier any more liable than had the passenger skipped a flight on that airline?

Anyways, I had some experience recently with this. Not to JNB, but to SYD.

Bought a ticket... visa didn't get approved in time. I bought a separate (one way) ticket on a completely different airline from SYD to AKL (as US citizens don't need visas for NZ).

Check in agent's computer did NOT let her check me in, as visas are all digital for Australia... and I didn't have one. Gave them my onward ticket. Took a lot of work, but they were actually able to get me checked in. They had to add the segment (on the different airline) to my record (somehow, no idea they could do this). My trip now showed up as to AKL instead of SYD. They also had to call SYD and get them to "accept" the transfer manually, which they did.


To keep things easy, they checked all of our bags to SYD on my fiancé's ticket (as she had a valid visa). Yes, this meant I could not retrieve my bags in SYD, so my fiancé had to handle that and checking them in for our next flight by herself. I stayed airside and transited.

Had another similar situation on an ATL to AUA flight a couple years ago... the DL checkin agent at the origin airport checked checked our passports, let us board. But one family member was denied boarding at ATL due to his passport being "too worn out" (which was entirely at the discretion of that gate agent). This created a situation where that family member had to go get an emergency replacement passport. And then the next flight the next day was sold out... at least DL stranded him somewhere where he could fix the problem (ATL), instead of like at LHR like the OP. Not sure how stranding the OP and his family at LHR is ever the right call. Not letting them board in the first place, fine. But at LHR? 100% the wrong call.

Anyways, back on topic, again, liability for possibly flying passengers back on their own dime is the main reason that the carrier checks all documentation before letting you on the plane on an international itinerary in the first place. Of course it is also the responsibility of the passenger to make sure they have all required documentation. The OP did that here.

Once Delta let them on the plane in the first place, they are now, in my opinion, obligated to pay whatever it costs to get the customer to their destination or back home due to any circumstances that arise that are outside the customer's control, especially ones that are created by the airline or its partners and agents.

Widgets

+1
As far as DL/AF is concerned, your final destination was JNB and you need all the sufficient documents to enter JNB. You weren't connecting, you were technically entering JNB and continuing on to a different country at a later time. It's pure luck that you weren't affected by an IROP and forced to enter JNB for a longer time period. This wasn't involuntary denied boarding. I think you misunderstand the implications of having two separate tickets and how that means you didn't actually have a "connection" in JNB.

CJKatl

Nobody's mentioned this, so I'm curious. Were there checked bags and, if so, wouldn't they need to enter JNB, reclaim and recheck the bags and go back through security? Or does JNB not work that way? DL would likely not have checked the bags to the second itinerary since South African Airways isn't a ST airline.

Even when I did this with carry-on in Singapore, I wound up having to clear immigration to check in for my AirAsia flight. I got an error message trying to check-in online, there was no check-in counter inside the secure area and they could not check me in at the gate. It was quick and I allowed a couple hours to take care of this, but had something similar occurred to the OP in JNB that required all of them to check in outside security, he would have been stuck without the children's passports. Why put yourself in that potential position? Why not just make sure you have the birth certificates?

MSPeconomist

That's the IDB definition by the USA DOT. EC261 defines IDB much more broadly and specifically does not require that the flit be oversold for IDB compensation to be mandated.

flyerCO

While true, in OP case it doesn't matter. They were ticketed to JNB, lacked sufficient documents to enter JNB and thus were properly denied boarding.

FirstInFlight

AF cannot determine whether your second PNR is valid, cancelled, about to be cancelled etc. If they fly you to JNB and you are denied entry they will be required to fly you back. Thus, the focus on making sure that you are eligible to enter JNB.

MSPeconomist

Not necessarily. Earlier this month, I had an international itinerary that involved an overnight less than 24 hour connection at DTW, all on the same ticket and PNR. I tried to show my passport to three different agents at MSP and no one was interested. I had done OLCI and printed the boarding pass for the next flight, with both the domestic and international boarding passes having the international itinerary/check passport or whatever words at the top.

theddo

I am still surprised they didn't offer a flight back to the US, since presumably that would be standby space and they had booked one anyway even if they aren't legally forced to.

dmbolp

Why not bring kids birth certificates when traveling across 3 continents and 5 countries???

Often1

Let's start with what is not relevant and does not apply:

1. US DOT rules do not apply. OP and family were denied boarding at CDG by AF. This was a departure on an EU carrier from the EU destined for a location outside the EU. For good measure, the stated reason for IDB was lack of documentation. Thus, even if US rules applied, no compensation would be due.

2. Commercial carriers check documents for their own protection. If they board a passenger found to lack proper documents on arrival, it becomes the carrier's responsibility to return the passenger to the passenger's origin. In addition, the carrier may be fined a significant amount. The carrier may recover its costs from the passenger. If DL erred here, it may have created liability for itself, but it did not create any obligation to OP and family.

Moving forward.

1. EC 261/2004 provides compensation of EUR 600 per passenger for passengers improperly denied boarding. Thus, EUR 2,400 for the family. For the sake of completeness, there is also a "duty of care". Thus, some food and a hotel had the family been stuck overnight. EC 261/2004 applies here to the operating carrier, AF, because it is an EU carrier and because the departure was from the EU.

2. The sole issue is whether AF's decision was reasonable.

3. Separate tickets alone are not a reason to deny boarding. AF could easily check with the onward carrier to determine whether the onward tickets remained valid just as it could if the onward segment to HRE was a connection and IRROPS is not relevant because IRROPS means that OP and family would be stuck at JNB no matter what.

4. What we do not know is the AF experience with its passengers in similar situations at JNB. How do SA border authorities treat passengers with onward separate tickets, in transit and children without birth certificates? The fact that SA authorities may not have checked this OP's children's birth certificates is not relevant if AF's experience is that SA does and AF has had poor experiences, been fined or warned in the past.

Thus, OP would be well advised to file a claim under EC 261/2004 for IDB for himself and on behalf of the minor children. His wife may file one too. The claims should simply note that they were not required to produce birth certificates for the minor children as they were transit passengers and produced evidence of their onward separate tickets to HRE, not to mention that they were acommodated by another carrier and, in fact, SA did not require the documents. Let AF justify its decision.

Having said the above and for the benefit of others as this is a public site: it is folly to travel without properly certified birth certificates for the children. Transit or not, connection or transfer between tickets. DOT or EC 261/2004. Compensation due or not. Proof positive, as much as it exists, is a smart thing to carry 100% of the time. Not just for air carriers and border agents.

While people don't want to hear this, human trafficking of children is a massive issue and nobody wants to be accused of trafficking their own child. But, it happens. While a birth certificate alone is not proof that a child is not being trafficked and this is not the place to debate the issue, the fact is that having the document can avoid issues in many countries in many situations.

Mwenenzi

Indeed. For example the Oneworld alliance now have a policy of not interlining checked baggage on separate itineraries. Most, but not all, OW airlines have implemented this policy. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/onewo...d-threads.html

With separate itineraries the airline will (correctly) take the destination on the ticket as where the passenger is going. Its always up to passenger to have the correct documentation. If the authorities do not look at it, that is irrelevant.

TerryK

Birth certificate proves family relationship which passports don't show. Children may not be related to you even with the same last names, especially if your last name is a common one. There are literally millions of Kims and Lees in Korea. Smiths may not be far behind.

I don't know if OP has a case or not, but this is a AF issue, not DL.

flyerCO

Often1, AF has no way of knowing that the passenger actually goes to HRE. THE ticket ends at JNB. If the flight was cancelled, AF would legally be on the hook since the passenger was only ticketed to JNB. No responsibility exists to get them to HRE, only JNB. Thus AF has to show that the oassengers can enter JNB. Just because a method exists to not clear immigration when on separate tickets doesn't change the fact that legally the second ticket is irrelevant if passenger needs to enter JNB due to unforseen issues. AF would be liable to both fly back to CDG and pay a fine at that point.

As for DL while it errored in allowing boarding, it's responsibility was truly only for ensuring passenger could enter/transit LHR.

ATOBTTR

It is a good reason if AF and SA don't have a baggage interline agreement and AF knows that the OP will have to cross the border at the JNB to claim and recheck bags (I can't find anything to say whether they do or not).