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-   -   Giving an Int'l D1 seat to spouse? (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delta-air-lines-skymiles/1789197-giving-intl-d1-seat-spouse.html)

injera Sep 6, 2016 6:28 am

Giving an Int'l D1 seat to spouse?
 
Good morning.

Flying to LHR for work next month and would like to bring my wife with me. Her travel is on our own dime and we can't really justify the $4k for Delta One when Economy is $800.

I'm more than happy to give her my seat in J and ride in the back (dont tell my boss). I've done this many times before on domestic flights when I've gotten the GM upgrade and the FA's really don't seem to mind.

Would this be an issue on a long haul flight? Or an international flight? I could imagine the rules being a little different when flying overseas or that the FA's may take it a little more seriously in a true premium cabin vs domestic F.

Thoughts?

miraclebear2003 Sep 6, 2016 6:47 am


Originally Posted by injera (Post 27172061)
Good morning.

Flying to LHR for work next month and would like to bring my wife with me. Her travel is on our own dime and we can't really justify the $4k for Delta One when Economy is $800.

I'm more than happy to give her my seat in J and ride in the back (dont tell my boss). I've done this many times before on domestic flights when I've gotten the GM upgrade and the FA's really don't seem to mind.

Would this be an issue on a long haul flight? Or an international flight? I could imagine the rules being a little different when flying overseas or that the FA's may take it a little more seriously in a true premium cabin vs domestic F.

Thoughts?

We flew JFK-ATH on DL back in May and met this couple in the Skyclub. Like you his ticket was up front (company paid) and his wife was in coach. They switched during the flight (forget at what point) and didn't seem to have any problem (we saw them come and go). It would seem that having your wife take your seat for the entire flight certainly wouldn't be a problem.

MSPeconomist Sep 6, 2016 6:48 am

The issue is that your employer bought YOU a D1 ticket for business purposes. It's fraud to give it to a spouse and technically doing so creates a tax liability for you and a reporting requirement for your company. In some organizations this could be grounds for termination.

injera Sep 6, 2016 7:08 am


Originally Posted by MSPeconomist (Post 27172129)
The issue is that your employer bought YOU a D1 ticket for business purposes. It's fraud to give it to a spouse and technically doing so creates a tax liability for you and a reporting requirement for your company. In some organizations this could be grounds for termination.

Completely understood.

If it helps, can we change the situation to....

I'm flying with my sister to Barcelona next month. She wants to fly in J, i want to fly in Y. I'm trying to qualify for PM status so would love to put the ticket under my name, get the 50% MQM bonus but sit in coach while enjoys the Delta One service she paid for.

While I'm sure Delta doesn't love the idea of my manipulating their system to improve my medallion status, would an FA/GA really have an issue if upon boarding i told them 'i'd like to give my sister my seat in J is it okay if she sits up here and i sit in 41B'

(not trying to be snarky, MSPeconomist, you've posted some very useful info over the years and i appreciate your help)

flyerCO Sep 6, 2016 7:16 am


Originally Posted by injera (Post 27172202)
Completely understood.

If it helps, can we change the situation to....

I'm flying with my sister to Barcelona next month. She wants to fly in J, i want to fly in Y. I'm trying to qualify for PM status so would love to put the ticket under my name, get the 50% MQM bonus but sit in coach while enjoys the Delta One service she paid for.

While I'm sure Delta doesn't love the idea of my manipulating their system to improve my medallion status, would an FA/GA really have an issue if upon boarding i told them 'i'd like to give my sister my seat in J is it okay if she sits up here and i sit in 41B'

(not trying to be snarky, MSPeconomist, you've posted some very useful info over the years and i appreciate your help)

Technically no they shouldn't allow it. In practice, I've never seen a FA deny a D1 passenger the option of switching with their spouse or family member. They don't like you switching during flight though. Do it before take off and you'll be fine.

UKtravelbear Sep 6, 2016 7:22 am

Your employer paid for your seat with certain expectations - that you would be able to have proper rest and / or get some work done and on that bases be able to hit the ground running when you arrive - attend meetings / do presentations etc

Sitting in Y means you can't generally meet those expectations.


I wouldn't go as far as say it was fraud but it's not something I would do.

RobertS975 Sep 6, 2016 7:29 am


Originally Posted by MSPeconomist (Post 27172129)
The issue is that your employer bought YOU a D1 ticket for business purposes. It's fraud to give it to a spouse and technically doing so creates a tax liability for you and a reporting requirement for your company. In some organizations this could be grounds for termination.

I am sure that you didn't become a FlyerTalk Posting Legend by bringing up far-out hypotheticals like this! There will be no actual record anywhere that the switch was made.

flyerCO Sep 6, 2016 7:30 am


Originally Posted by UKtravelbear (Post 27172263)
Your employer paid for your seat with certain expectations - that you would be able to have proper rest and / or get some work done and on that bases be able to hit the ground running when you arrive - attend meetings / do presentations etc

Sitting in Y means you can't generally meet those expectations.


I wouldn't go as far as say it was fraud but it's not something I would do.

It can be fraud since the cost of the D1 ticket is a tax deductible business expense when paid for the employee to travel. If the wife instead flies in D1 then only the coach fare is a tax deductible business expense. The D1 fare then becomes for the employee taxable benefit from the company. It would need to be reported out on their W2 as earnings and taxes withheld. Failing to report this thus does become fraud not only against the company, but against the IRS.

SEUS777 Sep 6, 2016 7:36 am

How on in the world would the employer or IRS ever find out if you switch seats mid flight? Tell your wife to enjoy the ride up front and worry about more important things!

Fraud? :rolleyes:

publicmsu Sep 6, 2016 7:38 am


Originally Posted by SEUS777 (Post 27172318)
How on in the world would the employer or IRS ever find out if you switch seats mid flight? Tell your wife to enjoy the ride up front and worry about more important things!

Fraud? :rolleyes:

Or tell your wife it's fraud, let her enjoy Y, while you sleep restfully in J. After returning home, enjoy being able to sleep all by yourself on the couch for a month!

cottonpatch Sep 6, 2016 7:43 am

"Happy Wife.....Happy Life"

The BNA Gentleman Sep 6, 2016 7:47 am


Originally Posted by MSPeconomist (Post 27172129)
The issue is that your employer bought YOU a D1 ticket for business purposes. It's fraud to give it to a spouse and technically doing so creates a tax liability for you and a reporting requirement for your company. In some organizations this could be grounds for termination.

Not sure if trolling or not...

The IRS has undercover agents that check seating assignments, beware!

flyerCO Sep 6, 2016 7:49 am


Originally Posted by SEUS777 (Post 27172318)
How on in the world would the employer or IRS ever find out if you switch seats mid flight? Tell your wife to enjoy the ride up front and worry about more important things!

Fraud? :rolleyes:

Come in tired and they ask why you're not refreshed. Not thinking you say it was a bad flight and accidentally inform them you were in coach when they know you were paid to fly D1. Talking with HR or AP for reimbursement of expenses and accidentally mention it. Someone from work also on the flight sees what happens, etc

The risk is low. However its still a risk, and is still a fraud upon the company and the IRS by not reporting it. The risk/benefit ratio may mean it's worth it. However even 99% odds of nothing happening mean that 1% something does.

Ledfish Sep 6, 2016 7:50 am


Originally Posted by MSPeconomist (Post 27172129)
The issue is that your employer bought YOU a D1 ticket for business purposes. It's fraud to give it to a spouse and technically doing so creates a tax liability for you and a reporting requirement for your company. In some organizations this could be grounds for termination.


Originally Posted by flyerCO (Post 27172298)
It can be fraud since the cost of the D1 ticket is a tax deductible business expense when paid for the employee to travel. If the wife instead flies in D1 then only the coach fare is a tax deductible business expense. The D1 fare then becomes for the employee taxable benefit from the company. It would need to be reported out on their W2 as earnings and taxes withheld. Failing to report this thus does become fraud not only against the company, but against the IRS.

Is this what you tell your spouse so that you can enjoy your D1 or domestic F seat while they sit in back ?

flyerCO Sep 6, 2016 7:51 am


Originally Posted by Ledfish (Post 27172387)
Is this what you tell your spouse so that you can enjoy your D1 or domestic F seat while they sit in back ?

Nope. I take the risk, as it's not likely anyone will find out. However that doesn't mean there isn't a risk and real consequences.

cottonpatch Sep 6, 2016 7:56 am

While the OP is aware of perils pointed out, I believe the intent was to find out if the FA would be inclined to allow the swapping of seats to take place.

It is my belief that the in-flight staff would allow the swap to take place. YMMV and may be dependent on the amount of courtesy and discretion when making the request. It is assumed that the request is made in a timely fashion - in other words, before the boarding door is closed and before services are rendered.

Ledfish Sep 6, 2016 7:57 am


Originally Posted by flyerCO (Post 27172394)
Nope. I take the risk, as it's not likely anyone will find out. However that doesn't mean there isn't a risk and real consequences.

Chicken! :D:D I'm going to file this in my brain for the next time I'm up front and the wife is in back. "Sorry honey, I'd really love to give you my F seat, but it would be fraud".

injera Sep 6, 2016 7:57 am

I apologize for stirring the pot - really wasn't my intent.

I'll book her on La Compagnie to LTN. $1,700 r/t flight, not as nice as DL but certainly a step up from a middle seat in Y.

Ledfish Sep 6, 2016 8:01 am


Originally Posted by cottonpatch (Post 27172416)
While the OP is aware of perils pointed out, I believe the intent was to find out if the FA would be inclined to allow the swapping of seats to take place.

It is my belief that the in-flight staff would allow the swap to take place. YMMV and may be dependent on the amount of courtesy and discretion when making the request.

As long as your not switching back and forth during the flight, I'd find it hard to believe that any flight crew would have a problem with husband and wife switching. In fact, you would probably get more reaction (negative) if you failed to do so and the FA finds out (speaking from experience).

cottonpatch Sep 6, 2016 8:01 am


Originally Posted by Ledfish (Post 27172422)
Chicken! :D:D I'm going to file this in my brain for the next time I'm up front and the wife is in back. "Sorry honey, I'd really love to give you my F seat, but it would be fraud".


pvn Sep 6, 2016 8:01 am

I knew as soon as I read the thread title there would be people clenching their fists

UKtravelbear Sep 6, 2016 8:21 am


Originally Posted by injera (Post 27172423)
I apologize for stirring the pot - really wasn't my intent.

I'll book her on La Compagnie to LTN. $1,700 r/t flight, not as nice as DL but certainly a step up from a middle seat in Y.

Better get in quick that service ends on the 24th September!


However why not look at a flight to CDG or AMS then on to LHR?

That could work out slightly cheaper in Y and may even make J affordable.

northwest_buckeye Sep 6, 2016 8:31 am


Originally Posted by RobertS975 (Post 27172293)
I am sure that you didn't become a FlyerTalk Posting Legend by bringing up far-out hypotheticals like this! There will be no actual record anywhere that the switch was made.

Bingo. Gotta get that post count up. People, even within the same company, switch seats so someone else can sit up front on long haul commercial. In a bit of anecdotal evidence, I know a CEO who switched seats with a lower ranking employee seated in Y who had never been up front long-haul. The horror!

He was not forced to fire himself for such an egregious act of tax fraud, as no one outside the flight knew or gave a damn.

flyerCO Sep 6, 2016 8:46 am


Originally Posted by northwest_buckeye (Post 27172577)
Bingo. Gotta get that post count up. People, even within the same company, switch seats so someone else can sit up front on long haul commercial. In a bit of anecdotal evidence, I know a CEO who switched seats with a lower ranking employee seated in Y who had never been up front long-haul. The horror!

He was not forced to fire himself for such an egregious act of tax fraud, as no one outside the flight knew or gave a damn.

Switching with an employee involves no such tax liability issues. Switching with a non-employee spouse/child/friend is what triggers the tax liability.

NoStressHere Sep 6, 2016 8:52 am

I think the direction this thread has gone should put this in the top "Can you believe" threads.

Forget the whole company or IRS thing. Pathetic.

The OP only wanted to know if the flight crew would have any problem. And the answer is they will not. In fact, if you stop and tell the crew in D1 what you are doing as your lucky wife is getting settled, they will surely make sure you are taken care of back in steerage.

Good guy. Happy Wife, Happy Life. Have a great flight and ignore all the problem posters. (some which I admire greatly, except for this thread).

FlyingWithers Sep 6, 2016 10:04 am

No Problem at All
 

Originally Posted by injera (Post 27172061)
Good morning.

Flying to LHR for work next month and would like to bring my wife with me. Her travel is on our own dime and we can't really justify the $4k for Delta One when Economy is $800.

I'm more than happy to give her my seat in J and ride in the back (dont tell my boss). I've done this many times before on domestic flights when I've gotten the GM upgrade and the FA's really don't seem to mind.

Would this be an issue on a long haul flight? Or an international flight? I could imagine the rules being a little different when flying overseas or that the FA's may take it a little more seriously in a true premium cabin vs domestic F.

Thoughts?

My wife and I do this often. We board with our respective passes and then walking down the jetway I hand my wife my seat pass.

Occasionally a FA will ask if she is Mr. X; my wife replies that I am in the back of the bus because I am working on saving our m marriage.

Have fun.

ATLawyer Sep 6, 2016 10:19 am

Anyone suggesting that seat swapping is fraud or triggers an IRS problem is 100% full of it and has literally zero idea what they are talking about.

First, it's not fraud, under any circumstances. At WORST it is a breach of contract with Delta, and I guarantee you Delta couldn't care less (unless you have a really cranky FA, and even then the repercussions are minor).

As for IRS problems.... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I had a good laugh at this one and actually brought a few colleagues over who do tax litigation over to see the crazy.

If you buy FC and there is an involuntary downgrade due to equipment swap, does Delta owe the IRS? Can you only get reimbursed for the coach price? What if MX or weather cancels the flight? REIMBURSEMENT OUT THE WINDOW, NO BUSINESS EXPENSE. The idiotic hypothetical are endless.

OP - Tell the FA, they either will or won't care (95% of the time they won't care). That's it. And ignore the trolls.

flyerCO Sep 6, 2016 10:29 am


Originally Posted by ATLawyer (Post 27173093)
Anyone suggesting that seat swapping is fraud or triggers an IRS problem is 100% full of it and has literally zero idea what they are talking about.

First, it's not fraud, under any circumstances. At WORST it is a breach of contract with Delta, and I guarantee you Delta couldn't care less (unless you have a really cranky FA, and even then the repercussions are minor).

As for IRS problems.... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I had a good laugh at this one and actually brought a few colleagues over who do tax litigation over to see the crazy.

If you buy FC and there is an involuntary downgrade due to equipment swap, does Delta owe the IRS? Can you only get reimbursed for the coach price? What if MX or weather cancels the flight? REIMBURSEMENT OUT THE WINDOW, NO BUSINESS EXPENSE. The idiotic hypothetical are endless.

OP - Tell the FA, they either will or won't care (95% of the time they won't care). That's it. And ignore the trolls.

Guess what? The IRS would only consider the coach fare a legitimate business expense. The passenger flying in D1 wouldn't be an employee thus there's no business justification for the expense. Plenty of businesses have these rules and for a reason. If you use a company cell phone for a personal call, technically you have to have that amount added as taxable wages since it's not a legit business expense.

This only applies if you switch with someone that's not an employee of the company. If weather, or FL cause a downgrade that doesn't have tax implications.

If you get a $20 gift card at Christmas the company has to add it as a taxable benefit. By switching with the wife the IRS would view the D1 ticket as being for her, even though in your name. Thus it would be a taxable benefit.

ATLawyer Sep 6, 2016 10:37 am


Originally Posted by flyerCO (Post 27173142)
Plenty of businesses have these rules and for a reason.

The business rule has nothing to do with the IRS. There is zero risk of IRS problems from seat swapping.


Originally Posted by flyerCO (Post 27173142)
If you use a company cell phone for a personal call, technically you have to have that amount added as taxable wages since it's not a legit business expense.

This is just not true, no technicality about it. (again, it may be a problem with your company, e.g. personal use of internet during work hours, but it's not a tax/IRS issue)

You know that the IRS actually issues advisory opinions about these sorts of things right? Please do a modest amount of research before running your mouth about things that simply aren't true.

pvn Sep 6, 2016 10:39 am

People get mad when other people don't follow "THE RULES" so they make up a bunch of scary IRS WILL SEND YOU TO GITMO AND WATERBOARD YOU stories, it happens all the time.

mAAine_flyer Sep 6, 2016 10:41 am


Originally Posted by RobertS975 (Post 27172293)
I am sure that you didn't become a FlyerTalk Posting Legend by bringing up far-out hypotheticals like this!

I wouldn't be so sure.


Originally Posted by northwest_buckeye (Post 27172577)
Bingo. Gotta get that post count up.

+ million

Allan38103 Sep 6, 2016 10:50 am

OP and wife board in their assigned seats. Problem solved.

After boarding, ask the FA's if it's OK to swap. They are the only ones who could possibly care; I don't.

flyerCO Sep 6, 2016 10:53 am


Originally Posted by ATLawyer (Post 27173171)
The business rule has nothing to do with the IRS. There is zero risk of IRS problems from seat swapping.



This is just not true, no technicality about it. (again, it may be a problem with your company, e.g. personal use of internet during work hours, but it's not a tax/IRS issue)

You know that the IRS actually issues advisory opinions about these sorts of things right? Please do a modest amount of research before running your mouth about things that simply aren't true.

I have dealt with IRS and they know the rules. The IRS will see it no different then if the company bought her a D1 seat. This means the employee would need to pay taxes on that amount. Sorry that you think otherwise, but the IRS has become very strict in regards to this type of thing. They used to not care at all, now they do, and do take actions against both people and companies for this. All the company could claim for travel is the coach fare, the difference between D1 and coach would then be a wage/benefit expense as it's considered to be wages for W2/tax purposes. Think if they issued you a $4k check to fly her, it would be considered part of your taxable wages bY the IRS. Just because they booked it in your name doesn't change the fact she's the one in D1.

BHammy Sep 6, 2016 10:53 am

Welcome to www.flyerBS.com

As others have mentioned, the OPs question is:
"Giving an Int'l D1 seat to spouse?"

I just had a GUC upgrade from SYD-LAX a few months ago. My wife ran out of hers. But during the flight, I started off in D1, took an nap, then midway through the flight, swapped with my wife in C+ so she could take a nap. Then we swapped back again as she was going to watch some more movies.

Never once did I think about swapping, nor did I notice any FA's have an issue with it.

On other flights, that I've been upgraded, I asked if my daughter could have the seat, and they've said: "Certainly". Nearly every upgrade I get, if I'm traveling with my wife or daughters - or even friends, I give them my upgrade. NEVER been an issue. (However, if I see a military service personnel in uniform, that's who I trade seats with - which gets more praise from FA's than any question)

...back to our regularly scheduled soap opera... :rolleyes:

pvn Sep 6, 2016 11:13 am

The IRS also wants to know when you get an extra bag of chocolate-covered blueberry-flavored goop from the snack basket. If you take more than two it's TAXABLE INCOME

steveholt Sep 6, 2016 11:20 am

Not going to suggest that the IRS idea isn't possible, but given that this is, you know, Flyertalk, wouldn't we have heard from somebody if there had ever been a case like this before? Wouldn't somebody have posted that they were prosecuted for fraud for switching seats? And because there isn't a thread like that, isn't it exceedingly unlikely that there's any actual risk?

injera Sep 6, 2016 12:08 pm

OP here.

I certainly get what folks are saying. My employer might not like it if i gave the seat to my wife (they're paying for J so i can sleep on the flight, not so my wife can sleep on the flight) and technically they'll be incurring an expense for 'Injera's seat in J' not 'Mrs. Injera's seat in J.'

Could it be against the rules? Yes.
Odds of it getting picked up by my multi billion dollar employer? Probably about as good as me hitting powerball.

Sounds like the vast majority of flight attendants wouldnt mind if my wife took my seat. If they say no, so be it. If they say 'yes, but only if we switch the names on the tickets' then I won't do it. Otherwise i'll take the risk

Can't imagine i'd get much sleep anyhow on a 6 hour flight departing at 7pm anyways. Thanks for the feedback.

ops55 Sep 6, 2016 12:09 pm


Originally Posted by steveholt (Post 27173371)
Not going to suggest that the IRS idea isn't possible, but given that this is, you know, Flyertalk, wouldn't we have heard from somebody if there had ever been a case like this before? Wouldn't somebody have posted that they were prosecuted for fraud for switching seats? And because there isn't a thread like that, isn't it exceedingly unlikely that there's any actual risk?

+1

jadenus Sep 6, 2016 12:13 pm


Originally Posted by steveholt (Post 27173371)
Not going to suggest that the IRS idea isn't possible, but given that this is, you know, Flyertalk, wouldn't we have heard from somebody if there had ever been a case like this before? Wouldn't somebody have posted that they were prosecuted for fraud for switching seats? And because there isn't a thread like that, isn't it exceedingly unlikely that there's any actual risk?

I believe we should petition the IRS to set up a Shenanigans Investigation Hotline. After all, if shenanigans DO happen, it should be considered taxable income to the Shenaniganee and the Shenaniganor should be required to report it.

KevinDTW Sep 6, 2016 12:16 pm


Originally Posted by RobertS975 (Post 27172293)
I am sure that you didn't become a FlyerTalk Posting Legend by bringing up far-out hypotheticals like this!


Originally Posted by pvn (Post 27173345)
The IRS also wants to know when you get an extra bag of chocolate-covered blueberry-flavored goop from the snack basket. If you take more than two it's TAXABLE INCOME

:D:D:D


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