readywhenyouare

Whatever Delta decides to do when they update their cabin I hope they will go for something other than blue and gray. More relaxing earth tones would be nice. The current setup has all the warmth of a dentist office.

Renes Points

Think FORD of days gone by. Any seat you get will be "Delta Blue"!

cmd320

This is true of US airlines which have no ability to design and operate and F class which is actually worth a premium over J (just look at the crap F products on AA and UA).

I agree here. Most TATL flights are so short the requirement for F may exist. I know I'm generally content flying TATL in a decent J product.

As stated upthread, Air Canada actually has a very decent 767 configuration. The United configuration is alright, but not great. I do like some aspects of it compared with the DL/AA config and actually find the comfort of the seat itself to be a little better. Of course aisle access is a perk, however I'll take the more comfortable seat over the aisle access personally. It's nice to not have someone to climb over/climb over you, but that only happens a few brief times throughout the flight. I have to live with the seat for the vast majority of the flight.

Funny, I have the same problem but opposite reaction. I hate feeling hot when trying to sleep, though I find that sleeping on non-perforated leather worsens that. I generally feel like I wake up in a pool of my own sweat.

cre95

Putting premium economy aside (i.e, W, C+, etc), my sense is that having a three class cabin (Econ, Biz, First) is tough since the number of companies out there that will pay for First vs Biz is pretty small. You might see a higher percentage of such First class seats being sold in Asia and Middle East airlines but my guess is that these would be pretty limited for North American airlines.

I don't know actual statistics but it would interesting to know, for example on UA flights, what percentage of their First class seats on their 3 class international flights are sold for money versus with upgrades or OpUps.

PDXNRTLHR

My two cents, in no particular order:

UA and AA are both in the process of phasing out International First Class.

When flying DL, I nearly always get stuck with the 767,as they rarely have anything else flying the routes to London (and connecting in AMS or CDG often doesn't fit my schedule). The seat is a bit closed in, but I do value the direct aisle access, and I know they don't have much to work with. KE's J product is very spacious, but less private and again there's that lack of direct aisle access. I love flying BA Club World; the window seats are very private, and though they squeeze a lot of seats in, it doesn't feel like it. I'm looking forward to their new seat which is similar to the current one but will have DAA. Unfortunately, I believe they've patented the design work we won't see it on other carriers.

On all carriers, and all planes, it pays to do ones homework on Seatguru, etc.

Lastly, no matter how "bad" a J seat is, it's nearly always got to be better than a seat in Y.

Zorak

Coincidentally, "like sleeping in a dentist's chair" is how I described lie-flats to a friend who hasn't been in one yet. Not that I'm complaining, would still of course prefer that to a standard F recliner. It just seemed like the quickest way to convey the actual experience

k2

Reminds me of the FT nickname for the PMNW WBC seats: tilt-a-gurney. People devised innovative ways to make those more comfortable including the seat-belt-butt-sling, pillow foot props, and I'm sure others. Thinking back to those days really puts today's onboard experience into perspective.

gooselee

I fell asleep in the dentist's chair earlier this week, actually. Just a routine cleaning, but my appt was first thing in the morning and I hadn't slept well the night before.

So...I guess maybe that's why I don't mind the 767 seats at all.

pbarnette

Plenty of airlines that have well-regarded F products are phasing them out or reducing the routes on which it flies. There is probably some small market, but I strongly suspect that, if you crunched the numbers, it is a net drag on earnings.

Funny you mention Middle East airlines. None of them are economically viable entities (hence the massive subsidies), so I'd question the economics of F, even for them. Heck, even QR is largely abandoning F.

And I suspect that the democratization of travel in Asia, along with anti-corruption efforts in the region, will see F become an increasingly tough sell in that market.

Dawgfan6291

not trying to be mean, but I think thats part of the problem.

Its real easy for people on here to say how Delta should this or should do that but the fact is Delta took the best option on the market.

The 757 seat, for example, is too small for 1-2-1 and would have to be 2-1-2 like United. Its easy to say "Delta should just put up with the loss of floor space" but it isn't easy at all. Delta is a company trying to make a profit.

and I won't get into your offensive non-rev comment that is completely un-called.
You do understand checking airline seat maps on their websites show you basically nothing right?
and for the vast majority of the rest of the world that is either scaling back F or eliminating it completely.

but if you want to pay for the US3 to have the same product as the ME3 then open the check book. I personally don't want to support any more loss making government programs.

cmd320

You seem to think I care about the economics of it in some way. I do not. That's up to the airline to figure out. If a foreign airline can get a subsidy and provide a better product (which is only allegedly the case here by some uncompetitive oligopolistic companies in the United States), fantastic, I welcome it.

pbarnette

Let's be clear, the ME3 receive subsidies. The only ones denying it are the ME3, but even independent analysis has shown that there is no way their reported earnings are correct and that they are operating at pretty significant losses.

As to whether you care or not, I was responding to a statement that DL should throw away money by implementing F. Whether you waste your money or your employer's for F is not really my concern. But you intimated that F may be commercially viable for non-US carriers, and the evidence suggests it likely is not, at least aside from a handful of routes.

ssullivan

No, it definitely wouldn't be. The 757 DL One seat is the BE Diamond seat, which was introduced by Continental on its 777 fleet. On the two class United 767s, that seat is currently installed in a 2-1-2 configuration (similar to the old Continental 2-1-2 767 layout when they had recliners), so single versions of that seat do exist. If 2-1-2 will fit in the 767 fuselage, then 1-2-1 most certainly will fit, with wider aisles. I can't speak as to how many seats would be lost, though, since it is a seat that requires more space overall than the Thompson Vantage seats that DL bought for its 767s.

pbarnette

It looks like it would cost maybe 20% of the seats. Not going to happen.

cmd320

False.

Again, you must zero first-hand knowledge on real F products in any way if you actually believe that it is a waste of money. No one is saying DL should implement F on every aircraft or at all, however if done correctly it could be profitable in some markets. The problem is that DL (and UA and AA) would never be (aren't) able to do it correctly, so they dismiss it as not being commercially viable.

Loss of a few upgrades and non-revs but pretty much all of the paid J travel would likely still get a seat in most cases I'd presume.