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DL applies for Haneda slots: ATL/LAX/MSP

DL applies for Haneda slots: ATL/LAX/MSP

Old Jul 21, 16, 7:49 am
  #211  
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Originally Posted by Longboater View Post
It can be moved, just as NRT-PEK was moved to DTW-PEK and NRT-CAN was moved to SEA-PEK.
However there were slots available for US-PEK/PVG flights. With the request to add LAX-PEK, all US-PEK/PVG nonstop slots would be assigned. Thus why I don't believe that it could be moved to a US-PVG flight.

Last edited by flyerCO; Jul 21, 16 at 7:56 am
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Old Jul 21, 16, 8:01 am
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Originally Posted by flyerCO View Post
However there were slots available for US-PEK/PVG flights. With the request to add LAX-PEK, all US-PEK/PVG nonstop slots would be assigned. Thus why I don't believe that it could be moved to a US-PVG flight.
It can be moved. The US-China bilateral treats all frequencies operated by US carriers into China equally, so NRT-PVG is the same as SEA-PEK in the eyes of the treaty. Conceivably someone could open a route case with DOT to try to force Delta to give up the frequencies back to the pool before reallocating them, but that would be unprecedented. Once an airline has these sorts of frequencies, they're fairly free to move them around gateways.

But, as I said, that has nothing to do with the treaty. Under the treaty, all slots to PVG and PEK are equal (interestingly, there are still seven slots available for service to CAN).
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Old Jul 21, 16, 8:03 am
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Originally Posted by flyerCO View Post
However there were slots available for US-PEK/PVG flights. With the request to add LAX-PEK, all US-PEK/PVG nonstop slots would be assigned. Thus why I don't believe that it could be moved to a US-PVG flight.
Its been years since there was a competitive application for a US-PEK/PVG application. Last time remember it was six years ago. Since then, airlines adding US-PEK/PVG have all applied and without objection received what they wanted. For example, UA's second SFO-PVG, which they will finally start in the fall, was not fought over/objected by AA or DL. If DL loses out on LAX-PEK, but intends to move NRT-PVG to operate the route, other than objections that AA will have, I don't believe UA will try to fight them and apply for LAX-PEK themselves. They've spent the past few years trying to receive a second daily SFO-PVG but the slot times have been unacceptable.
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Old Jul 21, 16, 8:06 am
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Originally Posted by jrkmsp View Post
It can be moved. The US-China bilateral treats all frequencies operated by US carriers into China equally, so NRT-PVG is the same as SEA-PEK in the eyes of the treaty. Conceivably someone could open a route case with DOT to try to force Delta to give up the frequencies back to the pool before reallocating them, but that would be unprecedented. Once an airline has these sorts of frequencies, they're fairly free to move them around gateways.

But, as I said, that has nothing to do with the treaty. Under the treaty, all slots to PVG and PEK are equal (interestingly, there are still seven slots available for service to CAN).
This is why DL has not objected to UA's attempt to fly a second daily SFO-PVG for the past few years due to lack of proper slot timings. DL seems to be the airline who'd be willing to pick a fight over virtually anything involving slot restrictions. AA's main argument in their rebuttal to DL's LAX-PEK application was yes, DL could start flying LAX-PEK if they wanted to, they'd just have to end NRT-PVG. Again, I'm under the assumption DL is "all-in" on wanting LAX-PEK, so regardless of DOT's decision, DL will soon be flying LAX-PEK.
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Old Jul 21, 16, 9:50 am
  #215  
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Originally Posted by pbarnette View Post
Aside from the HA allocation, they made the right call. Even with HA, I guess it nominally provides some competition, but I still think the benefit to US travelers is too little to outweigh the case for DFW or ATL.
I suspect the HA slot is good for Hawaii's tourism industry.
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Old Jul 21, 16, 9:53 am
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Originally Posted by jrkmsp View Post
It can be moved. The US-China bilateral treats all frequencies operated by US carriers into China equally, so NRT-PVG is the same as SEA-PEK in the eyes of the treaty. Conceivably someone could open a route case with DOT to try to force Delta to give up the frequencies back to the pool before reallocating them, but that would be unprecedented. Once an airline has these sorts of frequencies, they're fairly free to move them around gateways.

But, as I said, that has nothing to do with the treaty. Under the treaty, all slots to PVG and PEK are equal (interestingly, there are still seven slots available for service to CAN).
Given that CZ is in SkyTeam (but not as close to DL as MU seems to be currently), this would give DL a nice opportunity to establish an alternate hub in Asia, although is suspect that the CAN market has lower yields than PVG or PEK.
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Old Jul 21, 16, 10:25 am
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Originally Posted by MSPeconomist View Post
Given that CZ is in SkyTeam (but not as close to DL as MU seems to be currently), this would give DL a nice opportunity to establish an alternate hub in Asia, although is suspect that the CAN market has lower yields than PVG or PEK.
The idea of SEA-CAN has been brought up but management has said there will be no further expansion until FIS expansion is complete. I'm not sure why DL hasn't considered adding redeyes out of SEA, which UA is considering doing more of out of SFO as SFO has pretty much reached its limit with UA's Pacific expansion. UA was given approval to start SFO-CAN years ago but it never started. I suspect if a US carrier starts CAN flying, it will be UA.
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Old Jul 21, 16, 10:27 am
  #218  
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Originally Posted by sbm12 View Post
Assuming you mean the NRT-PVG slot, it is unclear to me that the bilateral allows that to be moved to the US mainland, though I'd have to do some digging to be sure.
Originally Posted by flyerCO View Post
I highly doubt NRT-PVG can be moved to anything other then maybe HND. To do otherwise would require a change to the US/China agreement. Now I could see DL moving it to HND and operating MSP-PVG direct via the MSP-HND flight. I'm not sure if the Japan/China governments would allow it, but that would seem the most likely.
Originally Posted by flyerCO View Post
However there were slots available for US-PEK/PVG flights. With the request to add LAX-PEK, all US-PEK/PVG nonstop slots would be assigned. Thus why I don't believe that it could be moved to a US-PVG flight.
Longboater and jrkmsp are correct; DL could move its NRT-PVG flight to any mainland gateway it desires.

Originally Posted by jrkmsp View Post
It can be moved. The US-China bilateral treats all frequencies operated by US carriers into China equally, so NRT-PVG is the same as SEA-PEK in the eyes of the treaty. Conceivably someone could open a route case with DOT to try to force Delta to give up the frequencies back to the pool before reallocating them, but that would be unprecedented. Once an airline has these sorts of frequencies, they're fairly free to move them around gateways.
Not exactly. DL flies NRT-PVG with old, unrestricted frequencies, which are not tied to specific gateways. DL could move NRT-PVG to any mainland gateway tomorrow and there's no risk of losing the frequencies nor any risk of a competitive route allocation case. These frequencies are old NW frequencies from pre-2005 when only NW and UA were permitted to fly to China.

Frequencies gained in the post-2004 competitive route cases are tied to the gateways in the applications (eg, all AA and CO frequencies plus all UA and DL frequencies won since 2004) and cannot be moved without permission of the DoT.
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Old Jul 21, 16, 10:40 am
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Originally Posted by Longboater View Post
Are you assuming MSP-NRT does not receive the axe? I have the assumption that MSP/PDX-NRT will be cancelled and NRT-PVG will be moved elsewhere as DL has alluded to with the opening up of HND. (Fate of NRT-PVG depends entirely on how DOT rules on LAX-PEK as AA and DL have both applied for seven of the nine available China slots. If AA receives it, which I expect they will, DL can just as easily launch LAX-PEK as long as they end NRT-PVG. In fact, I expect them to do so as DL solidifies its position at LAX.) While MSP-NRT will be cancelled, MSP-HND will still give the city of Minneapolis access to downtown TYO. Since its daytime, I assume the flight will do just fine.
As it is, DL has said the viability of any MSP-Tokyo link is already bleak. Don't know about PDX, or how that came up in the discussion.

Bottom line, MSP has minimal O&D to HND, doesn't offer much in the way of value for unique origination points with critical mass that aren't already possible over a single connection.

AA has applied for LAX-PEK, and is starting HKG.
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Old Jul 21, 16, 11:08 am
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Originally Posted by AAerSTL View Post
As it is, DL has said the viability of any MSP-Tokyo link is already bleak. Don't know about PDX, or how that came up in the discussion.

Bottom line, MSP has minimal O&D to HND, doesn't offer much in the way of value for unique origination points with critical mass that aren't already possible over a single connection.

AA has applied for LAX-PEK, and is starting HKG.
As DL winds down NRT, PDX-NRT is on the chopping block, in addition to MSP-NRT. The city of Minneapolis will continue to have a link to Asia with MSP-HND. DL is cancelling LAX-NRT the day it begins daytime LAX-HND. Pretty safe to assume the same for MSP-HND. As DOT has stated operate MSP-HND with a 772 daily or it will be forfeited to AA to start DFW-HND, DL has no option but to cancel MSP-NRT. I'm sure DL will do just fine on MSP-HND as it is a daytime flight. I expect AA to receive LAX-PEK as I stated earlier, DL can start LAX-PEK if they wanted to. They would just have to cancel NRT-PVG, which undoubtedly is on the chopping block as NRT continues to be downsized.
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Old Jul 21, 16, 11:15 am
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Sure will make for some entertaining reading when DL whines about losing the authority, and the MSP lovers carrying on in dissertations about the contributions Minnesotans have made to global commerce, culture, etc and NWs storied "heritage" and "leadership" in this market.

Last edited by AAerSTL; Jul 21, 16 at 11:23 am
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