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IRROPS due to no-show pax - Delta's responsibility?

IRROPS due to no-show pax - Delta's responsibility?

Old Jan 16, 15, 1:13 pm
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IRROPS due to no-show pax - Delta's responsibility?

Flying SLC-JFK-CDG-BOM last week with last two segments in W on AF metal. Right before boarding in SLC, get a text that JFK-CDG is delayed 1 h, putting my transfer at risk. From my seat on the plane, I call PM line, and it sounds like the incoming flight from CDG-JFK is delayed 3 h due to "technical issues" and also having to remove the bag of a no-show pax. With the 3 h delay, no chance of making CDG-BOM. However, won the phone agent lottery that day, as she offered to switch me to the JFK-AMS-BOM, which actually arrives an hour earlier. I asked if I could be re-booked into J, since I was in W previously and it would be a shame to downgrade to Y in an IRROPS, and got a "sure, I can do that" (!) Definitely gave a JWD cert for this one, as I flew JFK-AMS-BOM all in BE.

Anyhow, the IRROPS actually got stranger from there, as our AMS-BOM had to divert to Munich for a passenger emergency. Didn't impact my trip too badly as it was on last leg, but we arrived 3 h delayed. However, this made me think about the question of whether IRROPS due to pax issues (no-show or flight diversion due to emergency) is considered the carrier's responsibility. In the case of my original IRROPS, info also showed "technical issues" so it was solidly in the court of DL responsibility, but what happens when it is only pax issues? Is it treated like a Mx (hotel, vouchers) or a Wx (nada)?

TL;DR - Had an interesting IRROPS experience - curious whether delays due to pax issues warrant hotel/vouchers from DL, or whether this is equivalent to Wx delay.
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Old Jan 16, 15, 2:06 pm
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I'd expect it to be treated like WX problems. It's not DL's fault, but as usual you might get some apology miles.

However, in your situation, the problem was an AF flight so EC261 rules would apply.

Moreover, it shouldn't take three hours to find and remove a bag. In the past, I never saw a bag removal take even an hour and everything seems quicker now with bar coded bag tags and scanners. Airlines can figure out where a given bag was loaded in the aircraft very easily, although they need to move/remove other bags/cargo to access the given bag. My recent experience is more like fifteen minutes, perhaps with a range of ten minutes to under a half hour.

My guess is that the no show passenger who checked a bag was irrelevant for the delay which was wholly determined by the MX issue.
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Old Jan 16, 15, 2:14 pm
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Originally Posted by MSPeconomist View Post
I'd expect it to be treated like WX problems. It's not DL's fault, but as usual you might get some apology miles.

However, in your situation, the problem was an AF flight so EC261 rules would apply.

Moreover, it shouldn't take three hours to find and remove a bag. In the past, I never saw a bag removal take even an hour and everything seems quicker now with bar coded bag tags and scanners. Airlines can figure out where a given bag was loaded in the aircraft very easily, although they need to move/remove other bags/cargo to access the given bag. My recent experience is more like fifteen minutes, perhaps with a range of ten minutes to under a half hour.

My guess is that the no show passenger who checked a bag was irrelevant for the delay which was wholly determined by the MX issue.
Yes, in this case, it was definitely both pax and Mx. Phone agent said that the notes stated that plane pulled away, then had to return to gate for "technical issues." That's why I figured I would be covered pretty well. It just made me think about what happens when it is a purely pax issue.
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Old Jan 16, 15, 2:18 pm
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Originally Posted by Profchemnerd View Post
Flying SLC-JFK-CDG-BOM last week with last two segments in W on AF metal.
The first issue was the delay in an AF-operated JFK-CDG? If so, this isn't DL's problem for rebooking or compensation. Day of departure disruptions are owned by the operating carrier, irrespective of ticketing party or marketing code.
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Old Jan 16, 15, 2:31 pm
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This has nothing to do with DL whatsoever and OP is lucky that DL was willing to rebook.

But, even if DL were the operating carrier:

1. The delay due to having to pull a noshow bag is a government security rule (xEU) and not within DL's control at all.

2. The medical emergency is also not within DL's control (presuming that DL didn't poison the guy).

Neither gets OP anything.
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Old Jan 16, 15, 10:32 pm
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Originally Posted by Profchemnerd View Post
Anyhow, the IRROPS actually got stranger from there, as our AMS-BOM had to divert to Munich for a passenger emergency. Didn't impact my trip too badly as it was on last leg, but we arrived 3 h delayed. However, this made me think about the question of whether IRROPS due to pax issues (no-show or flight diversion due to emergency) is considered the carrier's responsibility. In the case of my original IRROPS, info also showed "technical issues" so it was solidly in the court of DL responsibility, but what happens when it is only pax issues? Is it treated like a Mx (hotel, vouchers) or a Wx (nada)?

TL;DR - Had an interesting IRROPS experience - curious whether delays due to pax issues warrant hotel/vouchers from DL, or whether this is equivalent to Wx delay.
A passenger emergency is not Cx or Mx. It’s a passenger emergency. Seen this happen before and always remember what my wife says…

“What if that was one of us?”

That’s enough for me to take a deep breath and be thankful all I have to deal with is a delay vs this poor soul who may end up in a hospital with no one who speaks their language, no insurance coverage, maybe no family at their bedside, etc.

I wouldn’t have the stones to even think to request RDM’s or hotel voucher but then, I believe in travel karma. YMMV of course.
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Old Jan 17, 15, 3:15 am
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Originally Posted by Sez_Who View Post
A passenger emergency is not Cx or Mx. It’s a passenger emergency. Seen this happen before and always remember what my wife says…

“What if that was one of us?”

That’s enough for me to take a deep breath and be thankful all I have to deal with is a delay vs this poor soul who may end up in a hospital with no one who speaks their language, no insurance coverage, maybe no family at their bedside, etc.

I wouldn’t have the stones to even think to request RDM’s or hotel voucher but then, I believe in travel karma. YMMV of course.
I was very compassionate to the pax emergency - clearly us being delayed a few hours is nothing compared to what the pax went through. And, in my case, it was on final flight, so didn't cause further disruption. I can't see ever asking for RDM (though I never do that for Mx either) but if this had caused me to be stranded in an airport overnight, I don't see how at least asking for a hotel voucher would be disrespectful of ill pax. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't do them any favors by sleeping in an airport instead of hotel. Of course, DL wouldn't be required to offer voucher, but as I've found, it never hurts to ask nicely and see what you get.
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Old Jan 17, 15, 3:38 am
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Originally Posted by MSPeconomist View Post
I'd expect it to be treated like WX problems. It's not DL's fault, but as usual you might get some apology miles.

However, in your situation, the problem was an AF flight so EC261 rules would apply.

.
EU reg261 does not apply. The OP chose voluntarily to not take the flight via CDG ... no EU reg261 here. If the OP was on the flight and missed the connection to BOM that's a different story.
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Old Jan 17, 15, 5:10 am
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Originally Posted by cfischer View Post
EU reg261 does not apply. The OP chose voluntarily to not take the flight via CDG ... no EU reg261 here. If the OP was on the flight and missed the connection to BOM that's a different story.
Of course there's no EC261 comp here, but the OP was asking hypothetically whether DL would treat the situation as MX or WX. I pointed that it was an AF operated flight and, as a flight to the EU on an EU carrier, the case would be covered by EC261 rather than DL's or AF's own policies.
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Old Jan 17, 15, 5:49 am
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(duplicate post)
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Old Jan 17, 15, 5:51 am
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Originally Posted by Often1 View Post
1. The delay due to having to pull a noshow bag is a government security rule (xEU) and not within DL's control at all.
uhh?? It is also a government safety rule that aircraft should be serviceable and comply with all safety requirements. Does that mean that the failure to fly an aircraft because it has not been properly maintained is not the carrier's fault because it is due to non compliance with a "government rule"?

It seems to me pretty clear that it is the airline's responsibility to have proper protocols to remove baggage from the aircraft without resulting in undue delay. As the Court of Justice of the EU would put it, this is "part of the normal exercise of the activity of the air carrier concerned" and cannot therefore be regarded as an extraordinary circumstance justifying exemption from the duty to pay compensation.

2. The medical emergency is also not within DL's control
That, OTOH, I would agree with. There is really nothing that a carrier can do here other than divert and is sufficiently abnormal to warrant the label of "extraordinary circumstance".
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Old Jan 17, 15, 7:14 am
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Originally Posted by MSPeconomist View Post

Moreover, it shouldn't take three hours to find and remove a bag. In the past, I never saw a bag removal take even an hour and everything seems quicker now with bar coded bag tags and scanners. Airlines can figure out where a given bag was loaded in the aircraft very easily, although they need to move/remove other bags/cargo to access the given bag. My recent experience is more like fifteen minutes, perhaps with a range of ten minutes to under a half hour.
Recently flew DTW-LAS and it took over an hour to remove a passengers bag. If I remember correctly the total delay of removing passenger and then finding bag took nearly 2 hours.
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Old Jan 17, 15, 12:04 pm
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It sounds like the bulk of the pax's original delay was MX. Yeah, there may have been some delay to remove a bag, but worst case that shouldn't take more than 30 minutes on a widebody (and they start at Departure -10). DL scans the bags, so they know exactly which can they need to remove. Even if the can is in the deepest position, it shouldn't take more than 15 minutes to retrieve the can, then say another 15 minutes to look through the 25-35 bags in the can, and then put all the cans back into position and close the door, remove the cargo loaders, etc.

This is from my experience managing ramp operations at a hub.

Originally Posted by Denal1 View Post
Recently flew DTW-LAS and it took over an hour to remove a passengers bag. If I remember correctly the total delay of removing passenger and then finding bag took nearly 2 hours.
There must have been something else going on there. PPBM (Positive Passenger Bag Match) isn't required domestically. Now if the pax that was removed made a bomb threat, that could change things...

It can be very difficult to find one bag on a narrowbody. There are sometimes hundreds in a pit, and you may have to unload every one until you find the one you're looking for, and then of course load them back up.
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Old Jan 17, 15, 12:09 pm
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Originally Posted by Denal1 View Post
Recently flew DTW-LAS and it took over an hour to remove a passengers bag. If I remember correctly the total delay of removing passenger and then finding bag took nearly 2 hours.
Why did they remove the passenger and how could that step take so much time? Was there a lot of time spent deciding whether to remove the passenger or not? If so, that would seem unusual as these decisions are usually made quickly and are not subject to reversal or appeal.
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Old Jan 17, 15, 3:26 pm
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Originally Posted by MSPeconomist View Post
Why did they remove the passenger and how could that step take so much time? Was there a lot of time spent deciding whether to remove the passenger or not? If so, that would seem unusual as these decisions are usually made quickly and are not subject to reversal or appeal.
DL 1490 DTW-LAS 12/3/14 757. Passenger boards and then ask FA is she can "Fill my oxygen bottle from the plane's oxygen system". The FA told her that was not possible and the passenger then stated she did not have enough oxygen to get to vegas. Red Coat came on and removed passenger quickly. We then sat there for more than an hour while they looked for her bag that contained "essential medical equipment". I say an hour but I know it was longer. People have a tendency to exaggerate wait times so I am trying to be conservative. If someone knows how to check that we can find out how long it took.
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