Delta goes with Airbus; A350-900 & A330NEO
Nov 19, 2014, 7:28 pm
#31
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And two more things on this point.
First, the A350 has finished flight testing and is ready for delivery. DL knows from the flight test data what kind of aircraft they are getting. And it is certified. Kinks will also be worked out when they take their aircraft in 2017 at the earliest.
Second, the new aspects of the A330neo are the wing tip and the engine. The wing tip is taking the A350 wingtip and putting it on an A330. The engine is taking the 787 engine (already flying and proven) and hanging it from an A330 wing. Nothing is new and none of it is overly risky. It is a known commodity
First, the A350 has finished flight testing and is ready for delivery. DL knows from the flight test data what kind of aircraft they are getting. And it is certified. Kinks will also be worked out when they take their aircraft in 2017 at the earliest.
Second, the new aspects of the A330neo are the wing tip and the engine. The wing tip is taking the A350 wingtip and putting it on an A330. The engine is taking the 787 engine (already flying and proven) and hanging it from an A330 wing. Nothing is new and none of it is overly risky. It is a known commodity
Nov 19, 2014, 7:30 pm
#32
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http://www.businessweek.com/articles...ge-on-new-jets
Nov 19, 2014, 7:37 pm
#33
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Why are you so bitter about this order? It's like you are taking this personally. Why the Airbus hate? Do you feel your preferred carrier ordering Airbus doesn't fit with riding ATVs through the mud in a camo hat and jacket?
Nov 19, 2014, 7:41 pm
#34
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Quoting the article " Boeing couldn’t find early delivery slots for the 789–hence the offer of the 777LR–but Airbus was able to move the A350 skyline around enough to provide the airplane early."
Maybe it wasn't so much cost or Airbus vs Boeing as Airbus could make the deliveries of the types of plane Delta wants when Delta needed them.
Maybe it wasn't so much cost or Airbus vs Boeing as Airbus could make the deliveries of the types of plane Delta wants when Delta needed them.
Nov 19, 2014, 7:42 pm
#35
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huh? 777 is wider..........
slow down. The 350 is mostly a 744 replacement and growth airplane. The 339 order isn't going to replace nearly 80 767s. Plenty of 67s to go around.
It isn't nearly as simple as Delta can just do whatever they like across the Atlantic. They have an agreement with DALPA that promises them 50% of joint venture flying. So if Delta starts reducing its TATL network in-mass then AF/KL/AZ will doing the same.
the 350 is the 744 replacement.
slow down. The 350 is mostly a 744 replacement and growth airplane. The 339 order isn't going to replace nearly 80 767s. Plenty of 67s to go around.
It isn't nearly as simple as Delta can just do whatever they like across the Atlantic. They have an agreement with DALPA that promises them 50% of joint venture flying. So if Delta starts reducing its TATL network in-mass then AF/KL/AZ will doing the same.
the 350 is the 744 replacement.
the 350-900 seats nearly 60 less passengers then the 744. On some of the real dense routes, wouldn't you think delta would want capacity more in line with the 747? The range is similar so that's about equal.
Nov 19, 2014, 7:47 pm
#36
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Where did that come from? You make the assumption I prefer Boeing due to nationality. You are mistaken. I have no problem with Embraer or Bombardier would love to see DL order some of their newer narrowbody aircraft. I have a degree in aeronautical science as well as an MBA. Aviation interests me. To be brief, a Boeing, Bombardier, or Embraer aircraft will do as the pilot commands. Airbus has a different philosophy and uses a "flight augmentation system" that brings a computer into critical decisions. I think the pilot knows best. That's it. BTW I don't own an ATV nor do I have any camo apparel. But then I don't look down on anyone who chooses to own either of those things.
Nov 19, 2014, 7:48 pm
#37
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The NW 787 order was made in 2003 when Anderson was the CEO.
http://www.businessweek.com/articles...ge-on-new-jets
http://www.businessweek.com/articles...ge-on-new-jets
http://news.thomasnet.com/companysto...isition-496854
Nov 19, 2014, 7:50 pm
#38
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Quoting the article " Boeing couldn’t find early delivery slots for the 789–hence the offer of the 777LR–but Airbus was able to move the A350 skyline around enough to provide the airplane early."
Maybe it wasn't so much cost or Airbus vs Boeing as Airbus could make the deliveries of the types of plane Delta wants when Delta needed them.
Maybe it wasn't so much cost or Airbus vs Boeing as Airbus could make the deliveries of the types of plane Delta wants when Delta needed them.
Nov 19, 2014, 8:02 pm
#40
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just wondering do I have to be a redneck or a hick to support buying an american product? I would like to say that I am proud to buy things that are made by hard working men and women in our country. Since I feel this way I must ride a ATV in the mud? How about I love my country and believe we make the best aircraft out there for various reasons. I would like to point out that because you might support Airbus or like their product more does NOT make you anti-american and because I like Boeing does not make me the stereotype you portray either.
Nov 19, 2014, 8:25 pm
#41
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the 350 is the 744 replacement.
So, now you have a very large fleet of aircraft that you can basically run on any trunk route.
Of course there are the specialized missions for 77L (which is in a league of its own). But still, there is no real good 767 alternative (ie, 180-230 seats with ~6k mile range). None of the narrow-body stretches will reach this stat combo. It will still be a number of years before it becomes a real issue, but I think DL would love either Airbus or Boeing to conceive a new small wide-body.
Nov 19, 2014, 8:25 pm
#42
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As of October 2014 Boeing had 81,662 employees in Washington State not to mention all the secondary jobs they create (shipping, restaurant ect.)
I am also sure the 38k employees of GE aviation cant be too happy and they are based in Ohio not the Delta cares about Cincinnati at all.
Also I believe the seat width size is up to Delta not Airbus or Boeing as both those companies make airframes not interiors.
I am also sure the 38k employees of GE aviation cant be too happy and they are based in Ohio not the Delta cares about Cincinnati at all.
Also I believe the seat width size is up to Delta not Airbus or Boeing as both those companies make airframes not interiors.
If they are pissed it should be at GE.
Well, what's done is done. All I want is for Anderson to correct his statement. Anderson declared that he doesn't like unproven technology. What he meant to say was "We don't want unproven technology unless it comes from Airbus. Apparently he is ok ordering an aircraft that hasn't even entered service yet and another that hasn't even been designed. For once, UA has made a better decision than DL. They will have a smaller widebody (787) to cover smaller international markets.
Its not a paper airplane. As for the 350, well the 789 is just now getting to EIS, the 788 was never in this.
I don't see your point here. United has firms commitments for 12 787-8. 11 are in service with 1 on order. It used to be almost all 787-8s on their books, but they have traded up to 787-9 and 787-10. I think the moral of the story here is that in 2014 the 787-8 is not the most economical aircraft out there, regardless of seat count vs market demand. The larger aircraft are going to be better long term for airlines. And the 787-9 is only about 20 seats smaller than the A350-900. I would say UA realizes they made a bad call on ordering 787-8s and has quickly reacted to fix that...leaving ultimately only 12 in their fleet.
I see you must have been a fan of Juan Trippe style airline management. I'll help you out if you don't get that reference. Juan Trippe was the founder and CEO of Pan Am. He ordered a ton of Boeing 747's and the aikne flew them around pretty much empty. That mistake is one of the reasons you don't see Pan Am around anymore. Bigger does not always equal better. I still hold that the 787 is the closest replacement for a 767.
the 787-8 and 787-9 have basically the same trip costs. So the large 787-9 cost the same as the 787-8 to fly, why would you buy the 787-8?
Most carriers who got the 787-8 did so to get them early. That is why you are now slowly but surely seeing more and more people convert to the 789.
Nov 19, 2014, 8:28 pm
#43
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just wondering do I have to be a redneck or a hick to support buying an american product? I would like to say that I am proud to buy things that are made by hard working men and women in our country. Since I feel this way I must ride a ATV in the mud? How about I love my country and believe we make the best aircraft out there for various reasons. I would like to point out that because you might support Airbus or like their product more does NOT make you anti-american and because I like Boeing does not make me the stereotype you portray either.
IMO, with BA's manufacturing process on the 787 it is hard to stamp the "Made in USA" label on it. Just like it is hard to stamp a "Made in France/EU" label on the Airbus aircraft (for example, Spirit Aerosystems, Wichita, KS makes fuselage and wing components of the A350).
Cool infographic from the Seattle Times on the 787's part manufacture and country of origin:
http://seattletimes.com/multimedia/n...oeing-787.html
To me, this seems like Airbus was able to deliver a comparable product at a competitive price in the needed time. BA wasn't able to meet those requirements (however reasonable they may have been) so Delta made the business decision to go with Airbus.
Nov 19, 2014, 8:30 pm
#44
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Exactly, a big chunk of the 767s is not _that_ old - DL will likely still be flying a significant number of them in 2025
I find DL's choice intriguing. To me it signals they feel they don't really need a 747 replacement (the closest true thing to this would be a 77W or a 789). It looks to me they are strongly trying to build a TPAC and TATL fleet that has some degree of flexibility to mix and match as needed. The main difference between 339 and 359 is the range. Also the 359 can execute any route the 777ER can at ~the same capacity. The 359 is the closest thing to a 747 replacement because it can handle the stage length (and then some), but in reality it will be a mix of 777 and 359 "replacing" the 747.
So, now you have a very large fleet of aircraft that you can basically run on any trunk route.
Of course there are the specialized missions for 77L (which is in a league of its own). But still, there is no real good 767 alternative (ie, 180-230 seats with ~6k mile range). None of the narrow-body stretches will reach this stat combo. It will still be a number of years before it becomes a real issue, but I think DL would love either Airbus or Boeing to conceive a new small wide-body.
I find DL's choice intriguing. To me it signals they feel they don't really need a 747 replacement (the closest true thing to this would be a 77W or a 789). It looks to me they are strongly trying to build a TPAC and TATL fleet that has some degree of flexibility to mix and match as needed. The main difference between 339 and 359 is the range. Also the 359 can execute any route the 777ER can at ~the same capacity. The 359 is the closest thing to a 747 replacement because it can handle the stage length (and then some), but in reality it will be a mix of 777 and 359 "replacing" the 747.
So, now you have a very large fleet of aircraft that you can basically run on any trunk route.
Of course there are the specialized missions for 77L (which is in a league of its own). But still, there is no real good 767 alternative (ie, 180-230 seats with ~6k mile range). None of the narrow-body stretches will reach this stat combo. It will still be a number of years before it becomes a real issue, but I think DL would love either Airbus or Boeing to conceive a new small wide-body.
and FWIW the 789/359 are basically the same. The 789 has about 700nm of extra range but rumor has been running around the AB will do a A350-900R to get to the, or a little bit better range.
Nov 19, 2014, 8:37 pm
#45
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What an interesting farrago of ignorance, knowledge and posturing.
How many of you have access to Delta's lifecycle cost calculations and the manufacturers' bid numbers? I thought so.
How many of you have access to Delta's lifecycle cost calculations and the manufacturers' bid numbers? I thought so.
