Rumor: 747 B/E seat reduction

Old Mar 21, 2014, 2:14 pm
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Originally Posted by jdrtravel
Is there any chance in the world that a real premium economy class is going to be rolled out? I highly doubt it but this would seem like the perfect use of this space if they needed to make increase profit of that space.

I am surprised that Delta would do this given that they just purchased those new BE seats for the 747's and I'm sure they were not cheap. And, as someone pointed out, they already reduced BE seating from the 65 seat NWA configuration.
I doubt it, as much as I'd like to see a true premium economy product.
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Old Mar 21, 2014, 3:42 pm
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Originally Posted by javabytes
I doubt it, as much as I'd like to see a true premium economy product.
Then we can get upgraded to that instead of F ...except on int'l and transcons, of course...
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Old Mar 21, 2014, 4:50 pm
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I say this sitting on a DL flight, but having recently come back from a long haul flight on AA, so to be clear my loyalties are somewhat mixed. I think DL anticipated selling far more BE than they are. They cut our corporate discount to the point that its dead even w our AA fares. So I have found myself picking AA when I can get their new 77W. It doesn't replace all DL travel, but I am not nearly as beholden to DL for premium long haul as I once was. Seeing as the other reports of them ripping out BE seats, I'm willing to entertain this could be true...
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Old Mar 21, 2014, 5:04 pm
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Originally Posted by stephem
I think DL anticipated selling far more BE than they are....
When you can get a real first class product for the same price as Delta's BE, they have a problem. I just did a random dates in October search for flights JFK-LHR and Delta BE was the same price as AA First. AA Biz was $2k less than Delta.

BusinessElite still can't compete with true international first but it remains a very expensive product. If I were going to purchase an international premium product, I would certainly be looking to see if I could real first class before buying BE on Delta.

They have a great product, but it's not priced right.
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Old Mar 21, 2014, 5:06 pm
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Originally Posted by HatAndJacket
Then we can get upgraded to that instead of F ...except on int'l and transcons, of course...
I meant on international flights. Even though I'd pay for it domestically as well, I doubt there's as big of a market. Many people are willing to be packed in like sardines for 90 minutes to save money, but 11 hours is a bit of a different story.
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Old Mar 21, 2014, 5:43 pm
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Economy or premium economy on the upper deck of a 747-400 really isn't that unheard of.

Both Virgin Atlantic and Air New Zealand split the upper deck between J and Y. They don't seem to have an issue with serving business class out of the galley at the back of the upper deck, passing the J carts through Y.

AF also has Y upstairs. Not a bad ride.

It's hard to fault Delta for trying to match cabin capacity with real demand, not filling seats with upgrades or non-revs. DL's revenue management is quite good — if you pay business class fares, I'm sure you'll still find a last-minute seat.
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Old Mar 21, 2014, 6:05 pm
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Originally Posted by jdrtravel
When you can get a real first class product for the same price as Delta's BE, they have a problem. I just did a random dates in October search for flights JFK-LHR and Delta BE was the same price as AA First. AA Biz was $2k less than Delta.

BusinessElite still can't compete with true international first but it remains a very expensive product. If I were going to purchase an international premium product, I would certainly be looking to see if I could real first class before buying BE on Delta.

They have a great product, but it's not priced right.
I don't really see AAs F as that much of a step up from AA J: slightly bigger TV and seat, same layout. Maybe the service is better, but is it that much better? AA even fails on their own website to really show any major differences between the two. Certainly nothing like SQ or EK F.

IMO DL J (specifically the new BE lie-flat seats) doesn't seem that far off from some of the lower end F products, at least in terms of hard product. Certainly they are towards the top of the heap when it comes to J. If it's the service you are after DL is probably not your best choice.
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Old Mar 21, 2014, 6:34 pm
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Originally Posted by HongKonger
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Old Mar 21, 2014, 6:36 pm
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Originally Posted by matthew64832
IMO DL J (specifically the new BE lie-flat seats) doesn't seem that far off from some of the lower end F products, at least in terms of hard product. Certainly they are towards the top of the heap when it comes to J. If it's the service you are after DL is probably not your best choice.
If you are talking about BE on the 767s where your feet are crammed in a hole, I beg to differ. That "space sharing" with the person in front of you is my definition of mid tier business class.

edited to add:
And low tier business class is something like UA where it's sliver thin or angle flat. I think upper tier J, at least to me, is something like SQ J or the reverse herringbone that AA and CX are using. I hesitate to compare it to F, particularly F that is a straight 7 foot space w no space sharing w seat in front or behind.

That all said, I wouldn't really compare DL 767 BE w/ AA F. Indeed on my last trip I didn't even think it compared favorably with AA J. I had a choice of DL 767 w one stop in ATL or AA 77W w one stop in DFW, nearly identical airfare, nearly identical flight times. DL wasn't ever really in the running to win that one ;-)

Last edited by stephem; Mar 21, 2014 at 7:05 pm
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Old Mar 21, 2014, 7:19 pm
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Originally Posted by jjglaze77
Taken from a pilot forum:

Originally Posted by APC Forums:

Forget non-reving in FC anymore...
Originally Posted by BizJet
It's hard to fault Delta for trying to match cabin capacity with real demand, not filling seats with upgrades or non-revs.
Between this and the B777 BE seat reductions . . . .

If ya' think there'll be an uproar about this with FlyerTalkers, imagine that chatter amongst employees!!!

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Old Mar 21, 2014, 8:51 pm
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Originally Posted by jdrtravel
Is there any chance in the world that a real premium economy class is going to be rolled out? I highly doubt it but this would seem like the perfect use of this space if they needed to make increase profit of that space.
Delta dare not do that. There's already anecdotal evidence that some corporate travel policies are reducing J authorization to Y+. If airlines were to make Y+ too attractive and comfortable, that would just accelerate that trend, thus killing the remaining cash cow among passenger service (premium class passengers).

The only reasons Economy Comfort exists are as a small token to try to make medallions feel slightly better for not being able to get international upgrades, and to extract additional marginal income for a very minimal alteration in the hard product (in most cases, it's just an adjustment to take advantage of space that's otherwise unused), and a very slightly different seat (headrest wings and an adjustment to the recline limit).
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Old Mar 21, 2014, 11:30 pm
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Originally Posted by will2288
Lufthansa has 16 of their old first seats on the upper deck (they only sell 8, and each pax gets 2 seats)..
No, there are literally only eight seats. Each passenger gets a seat, and next to is a full bed.
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Old Mar 21, 2014, 11:56 pm
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Originally Posted by readywhenyouare
Originally Posted by davetravels
I can't seem to remember how many seats PeoplExpress squeezed in up there!!
I did a quick search. I couldn't find how many seats were on the upper deck but I did find that their 747's were equipped with 490 seats!
How does that compare to FF? (First 747 I was ever on.)
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Old Mar 22, 2014, 12:26 am
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Originally Posted by DanTravels
How does that compare to FF? (First 747 I was ever on.)
You are one brave individual to have traveled on FF (Tower Air)! I'm still amazed that there were no accidents.
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Old Mar 22, 2014, 1:47 am
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Originally Posted by jimrpa
Delta dare not do that. There's already anecdotal evidence that some corporate travel policies are reducing J authorization to Y+. If airlines were to make Y+ too attractive and comfortable, that would just accelerate that trend, thus killing the remaining cash cow among passenger service (premium class passengers).

The only reasons Economy Comfort exists are as a small token to try to make medallions feel slightly better for not being able to get international upgrades, and to extract additional marginal income for a very minimal alteration in the hard product (in most cases, it's just an adjustment to take advantage of space that's otherwise unused), and a very slightly different seat (headrest wings and an adjustment to the recline limit).
UNLESS DL is seeing a loss in revenue from pax whose companies think DL J is too much and go fly Y+ somewhere else.
However, I agree that it's highly unlikely that DL is rolling out Y+ right now.
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