Hfly chimes in on 2015 changes and overall status of last 15 years........
Feb 28, 2014, 7:33 pm
#1
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 15,347
Hfly chimes in on 2015 changes and overall status of last 15 years........
After my sabbatical from FT, I am recently back. As many of you know I have been around these parts for many years, and in the past have been very involved in FF activism vis a vis all things Skymiles, and especially their changes.
After reading everything out there these last few days (and the last 20+ years), here are my thoughts (in no particular order):
1) Too many changes and too many complications. Delta, by my count this is now the 12 major change that you have implemented or planned on implementing since the late 1990's. Shame on you.
Yes we all know the industry has changed (over and over) and will continue to change, however continually changing the rules and goal posts every 18 months seemingly is ridiculous. And I say this as a 2MM who has maintained your top tier status in your program for the last 16 years straight and in 18 of the last 22 years, one who with very few exceptions (i.e. can count them on my hand) has never purchased anything below an M class ticket.
2) Almost all the conjecture here about whether this is better or worse is absolutely useless. They can give a million miles per flight, but if the ticket you want goes up to 100 million it means nothing. 5 tiers, 10 tiers, 1000 tiers, all mean nothing if we have no clue as to what they are going to be. It is ridiculous.
3) Partners? I have no idea what I or anyone else will earn with their partners, their entire explanation says and means nothing. So is this the end of Skyteam? Using my own situation as an example, they gave up to Turkish Airlines much of the year, so I am forced to fly/connect through CDG/AMS/FCO should I want to earn miles. Forgetting the fact that one can supposedly always get these tickets on DL stock (which one cannot actually always do) aren't they under antitrust immunity for their TA JV? Are they not somehow violating this?
4) I do know this. For years it cost 80k to fly to/fr IST in BE, then it became 90k. Then it became 100/150/200. Now it is 125/ 225500/ 362000 (or whatever). At any date I look at you cannot find under 262500, despite the fact that on these same dates the flights are not in any way full, and that is for the entire summer. I should point out that IMHE Biz flight prices have NOT gone up overall on this route over the last decade and in fact in many cases have gone down due to hugely increased capacity between the US and Turkey overall (a decade ago there were at most 3 nonstops between IST and the entire US, now in the summer there are 4 on JFK alone, not to mention another half dozen cities which have flights),and I am not even talking about connection options. Furthermore when redeeming from Europe the fee for redeeming tickets is not far off what a cheap economy ticket would be. Delta in this regard is simply just not even competitive.
What to do about this.
Comments such as "I'm leaving and not flying Delta again" are useless, I am sure that many people mean this, and a few will act upon it. However Delta has already figured this into whatever calculations they have made. Unfortunately with higher flight loads in recent years, and the fact that it is mostly the "lesser value" customers that make this noise, delta could care less. If loads start to drop, then things may change, otherwise this will mean little to them as the prevailing thought there is that higher value customers will stick around.
Wholesale furious petitions are also useless. Such things will not be taken seriously. I am sure that Delta has invested millions in putting together this new system and not only that, but the careers of many are resting upon this, so this approach will not get anywhere.
We are still 10 months away from this thing starting, and as pointed out above, they have not shown any of the real meat of this system, the charts and tiers. So there is time to get them to make some changes and show us a bit of transparency, but only if it happens the right way.
When we did SSM many years ago, we focused on some very strict criteria, and we stuck to it, we did not make wild threats or look like we were trying to change absolutely everything, we wanted to convince Delta that they were doing wrong by their customers and pointed out the reasons why.........and for the most part we succeeded.
So what is needed is first, a realistic set of "demands", a platform for voicing them and a campaign to make it stick in the real World. I propose that serious people post on their thread there reasoned ideas for what we can do.
I'll start the ball rolling:
They must release their five tier chart to us by April 15, so that we can see what it is about and plan accordingly, "later in the year", "Q4" or whatever is not acceptable.
They also must immediately release the actual formula for how/waht partners earn, I for one have a ticket I need to buy on a partner from Nov/Jan and feel that I cannot make an informed decision without this info. Without it I could easily go to another non partner carrier.
Please add to this..........
After reading everything out there these last few days (and the last 20+ years), here are my thoughts (in no particular order):
1) Too many changes and too many complications. Delta, by my count this is now the 12 major change that you have implemented or planned on implementing since the late 1990's. Shame on you.
Yes we all know the industry has changed (over and over) and will continue to change, however continually changing the rules and goal posts every 18 months seemingly is ridiculous. And I say this as a 2MM who has maintained your top tier status in your program for the last 16 years straight and in 18 of the last 22 years, one who with very few exceptions (i.e. can count them on my hand) has never purchased anything below an M class ticket.
2) Almost all the conjecture here about whether this is better or worse is absolutely useless. They can give a million miles per flight, but if the ticket you want goes up to 100 million it means nothing. 5 tiers, 10 tiers, 1000 tiers, all mean nothing if we have no clue as to what they are going to be. It is ridiculous.
3) Partners? I have no idea what I or anyone else will earn with their partners, their entire explanation says and means nothing. So is this the end of Skyteam? Using my own situation as an example, they gave up to Turkish Airlines much of the year, so I am forced to fly/connect through CDG/AMS/FCO should I want to earn miles. Forgetting the fact that one can supposedly always get these tickets on DL stock (which one cannot actually always do) aren't they under antitrust immunity for their TA JV? Are they not somehow violating this?
4) I do know this. For years it cost 80k to fly to/fr IST in BE, then it became 90k. Then it became 100/150/200. Now it is 125/ 225500/ 362000 (or whatever). At any date I look at you cannot find under 262500, despite the fact that on these same dates the flights are not in any way full, and that is for the entire summer. I should point out that IMHE Biz flight prices have NOT gone up overall on this route over the last decade and in fact in many cases have gone down due to hugely increased capacity between the US and Turkey overall (a decade ago there were at most 3 nonstops between IST and the entire US, now in the summer there are 4 on JFK alone, not to mention another half dozen cities which have flights),and I am not even talking about connection options. Furthermore when redeeming from Europe the fee for redeeming tickets is not far off what a cheap economy ticket would be. Delta in this regard is simply just not even competitive.
What to do about this.
Comments such as "I'm leaving and not flying Delta again" are useless, I am sure that many people mean this, and a few will act upon it. However Delta has already figured this into whatever calculations they have made. Unfortunately with higher flight loads in recent years, and the fact that it is mostly the "lesser value" customers that make this noise, delta could care less. If loads start to drop, then things may change, otherwise this will mean little to them as the prevailing thought there is that higher value customers will stick around.
Wholesale furious petitions are also useless. Such things will not be taken seriously. I am sure that Delta has invested millions in putting together this new system and not only that, but the careers of many are resting upon this, so this approach will not get anywhere.
We are still 10 months away from this thing starting, and as pointed out above, they have not shown any of the real meat of this system, the charts and tiers. So there is time to get them to make some changes and show us a bit of transparency, but only if it happens the right way.
When we did SSM many years ago, we focused on some very strict criteria, and we stuck to it, we did not make wild threats or look like we were trying to change absolutely everything, we wanted to convince Delta that they were doing wrong by their customers and pointed out the reasons why.........and for the most part we succeeded.
So what is needed is first, a realistic set of "demands", a platform for voicing them and a campaign to make it stick in the real World. I propose that serious people post on their thread there reasoned ideas for what we can do.
I'll start the ball rolling:
They must release their five tier chart to us by April 15, so that we can see what it is about and plan accordingly, "later in the year", "Q4" or whatever is not acceptable.
They also must immediately release the actual formula for how/waht partners earn, I for one have a ticket I need to buy on a partner from Nov/Jan and feel that I cannot make an informed decision without this info. Without it I could easily go to another non partner carrier.
Please add to this..........
Feb 28, 2014, 7:41 pm
#2
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Pleasant Prairie, WI USA DL FO (until 2/04), NW silver '03, NW gold '04+'05 Plat '06+ (thanks, Leo!), DL SkyClub
Programs: DL Plat/ Million Miler, AS, Hilton, Marriott Bonvoy, Piggly Wiggly Pig Points
Posts: 2,233
Hindsight being 20-20, SSM really didn't SSM but only prolonged it.
Feb 28, 2014, 8:01 pm
#3
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Long Beach, CA
Programs: DL DM
Posts: 5,292
Lol... Who is anyone to make a DEMAND? They have the planes, infrastructure, routes, staff, and market share. They also have very little competition. They can carry on without ALL of us on here. The market has changed, the industry has changed. Welcome to the new reality. ... and thanks for flying Delta
Feb 28, 2014, 8:22 pm
#4
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 337
1. Would you like to set a "red line"? 
2. I agree that information should be released as soon as possible, but "demands" - really?
3. There's already an "I'm leaving" thread- so far I think we've got two, and one of them made a post with a bit too much hedging..
4. 12 major changes since the 1990's? This is the a problem for you? We've had many U.S. Presidents, Speakers of the House, and Russian invasions in the intervening years.. I think your tolerance for change is low.
2. I agree that information should be released as soon as possible, but "demands" - really?
3. There's already an "I'm leaving" thread- so far I think we've got two, and one of them made a post with a bit too much hedging..
4. 12 major changes since the 1990's? This is the a problem for you? We've had many U.S. Presidents, Speakers of the House, and Russian invasions in the intervening years.. I think your tolerance for change is low.
Last edited by RSSrsvp; Mar 1, 2014 at 11:48 am Reason: Removed OP's quoted remarks
Feb 28, 2014, 10:08 pm
#6
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: ORD
Programs: AA EXP,2MM, DL Gold,Starwood PLT
Posts: 3,876
I'd say move on. Been there done that looked at the actual numbers and FF programs got out of hand in crazy times and now being brought back to reality. Would also seem have a little less to drink before you post.
Feb 28, 2014, 10:14 pm
#7
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2012
Location: MCO
Programs: AA, B6, DL, EK, EY, QR, SQ, UA, Amex Plat, Marriott Tit, HHonors Gold
Posts: 12,809
And also, could pheno please elaborate on the Russian invasions? I don't recall many of those. Or are you speaking of Russian invasions outside the United States?
Also, I don't think DL will ever release the updated charts and earnings by 4/15. In fact, I would be surprise if they even knew those numbers themselves.
Feb 28, 2014, 10:46 pm
#8
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Orlando, FL Area
Programs: Delta SkySponge ExtraAbsorbent, SPG Gold
Posts: 29,988
Mar 1, 2014, 7:27 am
#9
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: OKC
Programs: DL DM/2.768MM, Global Entry, Titanium_Marriott, GHertz
Posts: 6,748
Hfly, I am one of those that benefited from your SSM campaign.
Unfortunately, I am not to be counted among those who will protest these changes because it is one of the very few times that I will benefit from a major change by DL.
I often found myself in the minority on other issues with DL but am actually wishing the SM calculation would start now rather than wait until 1/1/15.
Unfortunately, I am not to be counted among those who will protest these changes because it is one of the very few times that I will benefit from a major change by DL.
I often found myself in the minority on other issues with DL but am actually wishing the SM calculation would start now rather than wait until 1/1/15.
Mar 1, 2014, 7:46 am
#10
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 799
I agree they figured some of us would leave - there are gamers in the system who try and take advantage of things. I recall one post where someone flew (allegedly) 189k MQM's or some nonsense for roughly 5k. That does nothing for DL I am sure.
To be honest, after having time to consider the problem I am not sure how horrible this will be - they are not asking for something unfair and they are doing something I would do in my own business - treat high revenue customers better.
Now here is the rub - do these high revenue customers care? The WFBF mantra is dead on - if I want to sit in first class all the time I should buy it. If I can buy first all the time - why would I care which airline I fly? Domestically there is no difference between the three (well, OK united is a bit surly but even that is hit or miss). Why would I care if I fly first from ORD to DEN on United, DL or AA? What is the motivator? Do miles really mean that much to that crowd? I sort of think not. In this case it is probably schedule.
Overseas is an even worse value proposition. If one is flying J TATL or TPAC then clearly they have very little concern as to which airline they fly. While there is a great deal of difference between domestic carriers here there are lots of international carriers that have SMOKING set ups (hello Ethiad?...). If I could focus on one airline, and I flew TATL/TPAC in J all the time, why would I chose a US carrier?
This logic does not make sense to me. DL is saying we want to give preference to the high value customers, and then offers them something that likely provides very little value.
I think DL would have been better served making these changes to the qualification program and assigning FC seats at the gate. I suspect the high value flyer would find that far more appealing.
DL seems like they are trying to keep everyone happy with this move. Unfortunately their marketing staff seems to have it all wrong. Time will tell I guess.
To be honest, after having time to consider the problem I am not sure how horrible this will be - they are not asking for something unfair and they are doing something I would do in my own business - treat high revenue customers better.
Now here is the rub - do these high revenue customers care? The WFBF mantra is dead on - if I want to sit in first class all the time I should buy it. If I can buy first all the time - why would I care which airline I fly? Domestically there is no difference between the three (well, OK united is a bit surly but even that is hit or miss). Why would I care if I fly first from ORD to DEN on United, DL or AA? What is the motivator? Do miles really mean that much to that crowd? I sort of think not. In this case it is probably schedule.
Overseas is an even worse value proposition. If one is flying J TATL or TPAC then clearly they have very little concern as to which airline they fly. While there is a great deal of difference between domestic carriers here there are lots of international carriers that have SMOKING set ups (hello Ethiad?...). If I could focus on one airline, and I flew TATL/TPAC in J all the time, why would I chose a US carrier?
This logic does not make sense to me. DL is saying we want to give preference to the high value customers, and then offers them something that likely provides very little value.
I think DL would have been better served making these changes to the qualification program and assigning FC seats at the gate. I suspect the high value flyer would find that far more appealing.
DL seems like they are trying to keep everyone happy with this move. Unfortunately their marketing staff seems to have it all wrong. Time will tell I guess.
Mar 1, 2014, 7:51 am
#11
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
I agree they figured some of us would leave - there are gamers in the system who try and take advantage of things. I recall one post where someone flew (allegedly) 189k MQM's or some nonsense for roughly 5k. That does nothing for DL I am sure.
To be honest, after having time to consider the problem I am not sure how horrible this will be - they are not asking for something unfair and they are doing something I would do in my own business - treat high revenue customers better.
Now here is the rub - do these high revenue customers care? The WFBF mantra is dead on - if I want to sit in first class all the time I should buy it. If I can buy first all the time - why would I care which airline I fly? Domestically there is no difference between the three (well, OK united is a bit surly but even that is hit or miss). Why would I care if I fly first from ORD to DEN on United, DL or AA? What is the motivator? Do miles really mean that much to that crowd? I sort of think not. In this case it is probably schedule.
Overseas is an even worse value proposition. If one is flying J TATL or TPAC then clearly they have very little concern as to which airline they fly. While there is a great deal of difference between domestic carriers here there are lots of international carriers that have SMOKING set ups (hello Ethiad?...). If I could focus on one airline, and I flew TATL/TPAC in J all the time, why would I chose a US carrier?
This logic does not make sense to me. DL is saying we want to give preference to the high value customers, and then offers them something that likely provides very little value.
I think DL would have been better served making these changes to the qualification program and assigning FC seats at the gate. I suspect the high value flyer would find that far more appealing.
DL seems like they are trying to keep everyone happy with this move. Unfortunately their marketing staff seems to have it all wrong. Time will tell I guess.
To be honest, after having time to consider the problem I am not sure how horrible this will be - they are not asking for something unfair and they are doing something I would do in my own business - treat high revenue customers better.
Now here is the rub - do these high revenue customers care? The WFBF mantra is dead on - if I want to sit in first class all the time I should buy it. If I can buy first all the time - why would I care which airline I fly? Domestically there is no difference between the three (well, OK united is a bit surly but even that is hit or miss). Why would I care if I fly first from ORD to DEN on United, DL or AA? What is the motivator? Do miles really mean that much to that crowd? I sort of think not. In this case it is probably schedule.
Overseas is an even worse value proposition. If one is flying J TATL or TPAC then clearly they have very little concern as to which airline they fly. While there is a great deal of difference between domestic carriers here there are lots of international carriers that have SMOKING set ups (hello Ethiad?...). If I could focus on one airline, and I flew TATL/TPAC in J all the time, why would I chose a US carrier?
This logic does not make sense to me. DL is saying we want to give preference to the high value customers, and then offers them something that likely provides very little value.
I think DL would have been better served making these changes to the qualification program and assigning FC seats at the gate. I suspect the high value flyer would find that far more appealing.
DL seems like they are trying to keep everyone happy with this move. Unfortunately their marketing staff seems to have it all wrong. Time will tell I guess.
DL wants to cut back on the rebate/discount/kickbacks it gives passengers, thereby increasing the costs of its customers.
Mar 1, 2014, 10:39 am
#13
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: DTW
Programs: DL PM, Natl-Exec Elite, Hertz-President Circle, Marriot/Starwood-Gold, HHonors-Gold
Posts: 678
Not even the people whose ego's are so over inflated that they think they represent everyone believe that making everyone happy is possible.
Mar 1, 2014, 6:14 pm
#14
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 15,347
Xeno, I respect very much what you posted above, and truth be told, maybe I too won't be that badly affected by the changes, however until we see the charts, etc we will have no idea, which is one of my main points.
As for the naysayers, perhaps you should read again my entire post, as I made quite a few points, and considering the fact that I actually said that posts such as "I'm leaving" would have no effect on Delta, it would seem that you are piling in on me for no other reason than simply to do so.
As for the naysayers, perhaps you should read again my entire post, as I made quite a few points, and considering the fact that I actually said that posts such as "I'm leaving" would have no effect on Delta, it would seem that you are piling in on me for no other reason than simply to do so.