Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Miles&Points > Airlines and Mileage Programs > Delta Air Lines | SkyMiles
Reload this Page >

Delta is driving me crazy with outsourcing to regionals

Delta is driving me crazy with outsourcing to regionals

Old May 7, 13, 6:52 pm
  #271  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,797
Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
I don't fly much, but all of my flying up until recently has been with Delta/Alaska, because Northwest served DTW, and Alaska goes to Alaska, and those are the places I was going.

I flew last summer on Delta PVD-SJC round trip, a total of five flights (cheapest). The two flights from PVD-SJC and SJC-PVD were outsourced to Compass, and I think ExpressJet or Chatauqua, while the rest were Delta. I didn't quite realize what was going on at the time, but after flying on those awful little POS airplanes (one was a CRJ and one was an Embraer), I will NEVER, EVER fly on an outsourced flight again. They are the most uncomfortable, awful little excuses for a commercial aircraft.

What really makes me mad is that Delta has basically outsourced almost all of their flights out of BDL and PVD, and even a lot of them out of places like JFK. Apparently they think that we're too small to serve with actual, real, Delta aircraft that are of a normal size for commercial aviation (i.e. B737/A319 size or larger), even though Southwest has proven them wrong running an all B737 fleet.

The result is that the only real airline that I can find who flies real aircraft out of PVD and BDL is basically Southwest, with the exception of a single Delta MD-80 that flies the BDL-DTW route every day.

Furthermore, to add insult to injury, Delta has a love affair with the junk that Airbus puts out. It's hard to quantify, but the A320 is a terribly uncomfortable plane, while the B737 is relatively much more comfortable (as much as a commercial airplane can be), both on Alaska and Southwest.

That being said, I have been very happy with Southwest. They have fixed a lot of the inefficient, archaic, and downright wasteful things that Delta (and the other dinosaur carriers) does like assigned seating, First Class, airports that can't support a dozen B737's a day, and the like, and is just fun to fly on. You can stand up in the cabin of their aircraft, and they have an excellent safety record, due in large part to their operation of a single aircraft type, which streamlines maintenance and crew training. I just recently flew BDL-BWI-DTW and back on Southwest, and it was a good experience, much more so than a direct flight on a toy airplane like a CRJ or an Embraer on Chatauqua or ExpressJet would have been (both are Delta contractors).

The other thing that Delta really pisses me off about is that they, along with the other dinosaur carriers, are artificially causing airport congestion. JFK and other major airports are extremely congested because Delta and the dinosaurs are (through outsourcing) flying a zillion little tiny aircraft out of them at a high frequency. If they would go to a minimum of a B737 sized aircraft (which can handle all domestic routes) with economy-only seating, they would cut the number of flights probably in thirds or less, and the congestion would be gone. They are also running 50 seat CRJ's to a lot of airports that shouldn't have commercial service (because they don't pass the test of supporting a dozen B737's a day), like Alpena and Pellston, MI, which are two routes that just make further congestion at an airport like DTW, and shouldn't exist at all, since they are too short and too small to justify commercial aviation (Hertz would be happy to get people from DTW to the northern part of the state).

As a result, I will try to avoid Delta in the future, and I will definitely be avoiding their outsourced flights. I will try to use Southwest whenever possible for domestic flights, and foreign airlines like Quantas, New Zealand Air, Air France, British Airways, Korean Air, etc, for international travel.

It is pretty clear with Southwest becoming the number one domestic US airline (all the while using fewer planes on fewer routes at fewer airports with fewer takeoffs and landings) that Delta and the dinosaurs need to reform their broken model- and fast.

EDIT: Consistency of spelling of ExpressJet- is it that or XpressJet? XpressJet looks way too much like a convenience store name.
Delta has listened to every one of your concerns. Going forward Delta will move a lot of the regionals to mainline with Boeing 717 and Delta has an order of 100 737-900ER's due in.

Delta has a much larger fleet than Southwest ever had. While Southwest is a good airline for what it is, Delta serves much great number of flights to more markets and has full domestic and international coverage which Southwest does not have.

Delta will actually be the best for the regional coverage because unlike its counterparts, they have an active program to migrate much of its existing regional coverage over to the 717's and that swapover will make Delta an airline like no other and Delta will be the best large scale global carrier in the USA bar none. ComAir which Delta fully owned has already been phased out if I recall correctly.

Delta has non assigned seating and assigned seating options depending on which class ticket you hold.

Southwest is a LOWER cost model, however Southwest will never have the scale of Delta and Southwest's route structures in the biggest markets is lacking.

My market has a few Southwest flights out of LGA. But they never will be able to match the scale and scope of Delta which will only improve in the coming months as new planes and new terminal gates and more are ready.

I am very happy with what Delta has in store for customers going forward. I have flown on multiple carriers before and I can say right now that I prefer Delta overwhelmingly over Southwest and it will only get even better for the future.

Southwest may be cheaper with less fees but you get what you pay for without assigned seating, and a much smaller route structure and no upgrades to premium class seating.

Delta used to have an even larger scale network but due to the costs of running the regionals it will be upsizing, turning many over to mainline which means less total airports in the network. So while you could prefer 717's like I do over regionals which Delta is moving to, the downside to all this is some airports will be removed from coverage.

Last edited by adamj023; May 7, 13 at 7:03 pm
adamj023 is offline  
Old May 7, 13, 6:54 pm
  #272  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: London
Posts: 16,921
Originally Posted by adamj023 View Post
Delta has non assigned seating and assigned seating options depending on which class ticket you hold.
What? Since when? I'm switching to AA.
Calchas is offline  
Old May 7, 13, 6:58 pm
  #273  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Between BDL and PVD
Programs: RapidRewards, SkyPesos, whatever flies where I want to go.
Posts: 270
Originally Posted by Calchas View Post
I don't believe you. If you know how to do this, please come and run our rail service in the UK. Or indeed the one in Japan. Or the one in France.

Security does not usually take two hours, (I normally allow <30 mins but I haven't been to this airport) --- and if your flight is getting close you push to the front. Also, if BWI is taking 1 hour 30 mins (!?), can you route through DCA? (20 mins on the metro.)

I don't think you are a troll and I value your input in this board. But please try to be more understanding of other people's positions. You do not have a monopoly on sensible reasoning.

(I really hate driving though. )
I hope to ride the rails all over the world. I love trains, and I would love to see rail travel in other countries. The standard (non-HSR) trains in Hokkaido, the French TGV, and the Eurostar are three of the top ones I want to ride. Of course with Japan would come extensive riding on the Shinkansen.

TSA guidelines are 90 or 120 minutes for all the airports I've looked at. It usually only takes 10 minutes, but it just depends on the load at that time. When I went through in Seattle, I got stuck in a mass of Koreans going on Korean Air. It made me feel out of place, as I like a foot taller than everyone else in line!

BWI is supposed to be the airport for DC and Baltimore, the DelMarVA peninsula, and other surround areas, although Southwest flies out of Dulles now. I'm not sure to where though. Since BWI is close, and is an east coast hub for Southwest, that's going to be the best bet for most people.

Originally Posted by DTW-HomeyFour View Post
I am a big guy, and normally need a belt extension on Delta's CR2s. I'm also a fairly frequently flier.

I drive from the northern suburbs of Detroit to St. Joseph/Benton Harbor almost every week. It's 3.5 hours in the summer, and 5+ in the winter. Almost to Chicago. If I could fly in a Dash-8, let alone a CR2, I would do it in a heartbeat if an airline made it economical, esp. in the winter. I am considering getting a PPL to fly myself there.

I hate the CRJs, actually hate Delta's CR7s worse than the 2s, but anything beats driving through freezing rain and snow for hours on I-94. Heck, I was stopped for 3 hours this week when 94 closed due to an overturned semi/fire on a 70 degree sunny day.

Fly WN. I have also had good success with them (when the flights have been not so full.) I like the occasional chance of an upgrade, Economy Comfort seats on long flights to Mexico, and better response during IRROPS. You don't seem like much of a frequent flier.
Routes like that are a tough one. There's really no transportation mode that would significantly help you. Maybe HSR could get you there more comfortably in about the same time when you account for the feeders, but would end up costing more.

I'm not a frequent flier. I don't think I could ever be one. The most I could handle on a frequent basis would be another city on the NEC, since that does't involve flying.

Originally Posted by MS02113 View Post
Nope, I don't connect onwardI simply fly from BOS to LGA. The Amtrak ride is neither more "beautiful" nor shorter than flying, even taking into account security at Logan. Additionally, Delta offers Wi-Fi on all but its 50-seat regional jets.

Many passengers simply will not put up with unassigned and/or coach-only seating. Why is this so difficult for you to grasp? If DL eliminated these two features tomorrow, its most profitable customers (read: business travelers) would flock to UA, AA, or US, not WN.

I'll give you that one. WN turns its planes around faster than DL. Fortunately, turnaround times don't matter to passengers (provided everything's on schedule).
Flying BOS-LGA is irrational. Even if you were going from Revere to Queens, it's not much shorter than the train, and downtown Boston to downtown Manhattan, it's quite a bit longer.

To fly on a 1 hour flight, it takes 25 minutes to get from downtown to the airport, 2 hours for security, an hour to fly, and over an hour to get to Manhattan from LGA. Obviously it depends on exactly where you are going. Downtown to downtown is thus four and a half hours. The Northeast Regional does it in 4:45. The Acela does it in 3:35, saving almost an hour over flying, and it is much more comfortable as well, and a heck of a lot more useful time wise, as you're not waiting for a plane and getting on and getting to 10kft and back from 10kft, on Acela you can be on the laptop/phone/read the paper/whatever the whole trip. Or look out the window.

Delta's Wifi is pretty useless unless you pay (which no one should ever pay for Wifi), Amtrak's is free, and unlike Delta's little 3.6mbps EVDO backhaul, Amtrak's is backhauled on AT&T's LTE, which can be upwards of 50mbps. And you can use a cell phone while you're on the train.

The Amtrak ride is absolutely more beautiful. You cruise along the RI and CT shorelines, and it is far more comfortable. Even before Acela, anyone who thought of flying that route is positively nuts. Anyone who flies it today needs to have their head checked out. There are so many ways to get there that don't involve flying, it's not even funny.

Put up with assigned seating? Assigned seating is a total pain. Southwest lets you choose any available seat. It's easier, faster, and just better.

Originally Posted by javabytes View Post
It's a perfect analogy. They're both ultimately focused on the same single objective: profitability. How many passengers flown/diners served is at best a secondary concern.
It makes no sense. Flying is not a good experience, will never be, it's about sucking it up and getting to point B. At least Southwest makes it less bad than Delta or the others. Alaska is good too, which is a weird comparison since they are the dinosaur of dinosaurs with being an old-school airline, but they also have Alaska to rake in the cash on where they are a virtual monopoly operator.

Originally Posted by DTW-HomeyFour View Post
Why would you want to drive an hour or hour and a half to the darn airport?? It sucks that it takes me 45 minutes to get to either FNT or DTW from my house. Heck, if I could fly from DET (Detroit City Airport) it would cut out 30 minutes of my drive to the airport, not to mention quicker parking and security. Chautauqua (oh no! a regional carrier!) flew from there at one point and it was awesome. Granted, the airport failed due to the crazy Detroit government, but so much more convenient to be at a "small" airport close to home.
I consider myself privileged to be only an hour to an hour and a half from two tier 2 airports. Some areas, like north of Traverse City, MI, are 3 hours (or more).

Originally Posted by DTW-HomeyFour View Post
Found Delta randomly for $259.60 all-in PVD-GRR on MD80s and MD90s. $180 on United if you don't mind flying ER145s.
Why would I want to fly a longer route on a terrible airline when I can fly a shorter route with Pinkberry in the middle on an awesome airline for less money in greater comfort? Southwest wins hands down on that one.

Originally Posted by WidgetKid View Post
OP - If you are connecting through BWI to be on all Southworst mainline, then wouldn't it be just as easy to connect through ATL and be on all DL mainline? And ATL should be your model of efficiency. Massive amounts of people crammed through smaller concourses with gates RARELY being unoccupied.
Except I don't go anywhere down there. At least not yet. And Southwest has amazing flights and prices to Florida, so when I go down there, I'll be sure to book on them, using the Low Fare Calendar (which probably also roughly correlates with cheaper hotels and whatnot).

Originally Posted by DTW-HomeyFour View Post
Agreed. My boss would be FURIOUS if I took 3 flights to get anywhere from DTW. My time is way more valuable, as is yours. For leisure? Yep, for my honeymoon I connected in MSP and SEA to get to HNL on the cheap, but that is because I had time to spare and it was what I could get on NW for 25k miles
We don't really have direct flights to anywhere, so it doesn't matter. Even if we did, I'd still take Southwest. I only get 8 hours for the day when I'm on travel, so it doesn't really matter how long I'm traveling or not as long as it's not significantly different than another option.

Originally Posted by Calchas View Post
I just don't subscribe to coming up with all these nutty hypothetical scenarios of people taking the train or building thousand-mile-long high speed rail lines. This is America. You drive and fly everywhere.
If we as a collective society weren't so dumb, we'd already have 20k miles of 220mph rail, if not more. HSR is critical to out future as a country, yet no one seems to get it. HSR is never going to get rid of flying totally, but getting flying out of a lot of trips would be a huge help.
BiggAW is offline  
Old May 7, 13, 7:00 pm
  #274  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: MCO
Programs: DL Diamond
Posts: 112
Originally Posted by tigerstraveler99 View Post
Q1 2013 stats don't support your theory.

LUV $4,084 million in revenue and operating income of $70 million
DAL $8,500 million in revenue and operating income of $222 million

If you calculate the profit percentage and you will see that DAL is makes a higher profit percentage.
OP you seemed to miss my previous statement. Can you explain to me what true facts support your theory that SWA is more efficient then Delta? Just because you think it is efficient doesn't mean they actual are. That is an opinion and not facts. In business you measure that by the impact to profit either by a revenue increase or a cost savings.
tigerstraveler99 is offline  
Old May 7, 13, 7:14 pm
  #275  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,797
Originally Posted by Calchas View Post
What? Since when? I'm switching to AA.
Delta’s New “E” Basic Economy Fare – No Seat Assignments, Even For Medallions

Was introduced in 2012. But with Delta you have a choice of seat assignment or not.

Some people don't care what seat they get in advance and can get a seat at the airport.
adamj023 is offline  
Old May 7, 13, 7:15 pm
  #276  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Bye Delta
Programs: AA EXP, HH Diamond, IHG Plat, Hyatt Plat, SPG Gold, MR Gold, Nat'l Exec Elite, Avis Presidents Club
Posts: 15,963
Originally Posted by Calchas View Post
What? Since when? I'm switching to AA.
E fares do not allow advance seat assignments, and are completely non-changeable and non-refundable. These fares are discounted even further than standard discounted fares, are limited to certain test markets, and are clearly disclosed.

javabytes is offline  
Old May 7, 13, 7:18 pm
  #277  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Bye Delta
Programs: AA EXP, HH Diamond, IHG Plat, Hyatt Plat, SPG Gold, MR Gold, Nat'l Exec Elite, Avis Presidents Club
Posts: 15,963
Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
It makes no sense. Flying is not a good experience, will never be, it's about sucking it up and getting to point B.
Perhaps you should not be so quick to dismiss First Class, and then tell us if flying is not a good experience.
javabytes is offline  
Old May 7, 13, 7:19 pm
  #278  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Between BDL and PVD
Programs: RapidRewards, SkyPesos, whatever flies where I want to go.
Posts: 270
Originally Posted by flying_q View Post
I also travel BOS-LGA regularly. I suspect BiggAW has never flown the DL shuttle. I also suspect he has never tried using the Amtrak WiFi, or a data connection card in the NE corridor whilst travelling 120mph (or whatever measly speed the Acela tops out at in RI). Good luck keeping a consistent signal, let alone one that is successful in maintaining any sort of connection to a corporate VPN.

I will choose my expedited trip through security, 5 minute wait at the gate, and 32 minutes of airtime over the 2:48 train ride any day.

Perhaps BiggAW cannot grasp that folks flying BOS-LGA may not be working near South Station or in midtown. A trip to South Station can be more inconvenient than a trip to Logan if you must return a rental car. Provided it's not rush hour, a cab from LGA to most of mid-town is a very quick trip...not to mention the absolute convenience of LGA to the hundreds of corporate headquarters in Westchester county. I suppose to the OP, doing anything other than driving from BOS to say, Rye, would be insane.

OP - what about folks who don't have a car? They must get to the airport, pick up a rental car, and then drive the few hundred measly miles you speak of. Wouldn't it be more convenient to get to the terminal and take a sub 60 minute flight?

Fly WN, or move to Effingham, IL. Flying won't be an issue - the jets out of CMI are too pathetic for your blood. Your thirst for hour long drives will be fulfilled by a town bisected with two major highways, but effectively in the middle of nowhere.
Get your own AT&T LTE modem if it's that big of a deal. It's a big wonky, but you have to pay on the plane, which is a total rip-off, and it's really slow.

None of your numbers are right, not even the trains. Also, it takes 25 minutes to get out to Logan, and it takes over an hour to get to Manhattan from LGA, because it doesn't have direct access to the subway system like JFK, you have to take M60 to the 7 train.

For those who can't use Google Maps, you can take the train to Rye. Switch to MN at STM, catch a local, and get off at Rye. You might have to get a cab or have someone pick you up, since you're outside of NYC, but it would still be a much better option. If you rent a car at LGA, you could get there in 30 minutes, if not, it's an hour and a half.

If you don't have a car, the train works well for city to city transport. That particular one is one of the best rail routes in North America, between the fastest train in North America, and the largest commuter rail operation in North America.

Also, geography fail. Westchester county is NORTH of NYC, LGA is Long Island, which is EAST of NYC. It's still the closest airport, but it's not exactly convenient. Especially when you factor in the epic disaster that is traffic in NYC.

Since you say you don't have a cah, you must live near downtown in Bahstan. So if you were to take the hour flight air shuttle:

25 minutes to BOS
90 minutes security (I'll give you the benefit of the doubt since I can't find the website that shows which are 90 and which are 120).
60 minutes in the air
30 minutes to rent a car
30 minutes to drive (assume NO traffic- LOL)

Total: 3 hours 55 minutes to Rye with a terrible flight, and a hellish drive through NYC traffic. It's another half hour if you don't rent the cah. Or the cawr as they would call them down there.

Amtrak BOS-STM: 2 hours 42 minutes
Layover at STM: 6 minutes
MN STM-Rye: 16 minutes

Total 3 hours and 4 minutes of a nice, relaxing train ride with nice scenery, LTE, cell service, and a lot of legroom. Interesting how that worked out isn't it?

Originally Posted by DTW-HomeyFour View Post
This is why you should always wear your seatbelt, even if the sign is off. I am 6'1", and have whacked my head on the TVs of a 757 and never once in an RJ.
I am 6'3" tall. I want to be able to stand up in the plane.

Originally Posted by adamj023 View Post
Delta has listened to every one of your concerns. Going forward Delta will move a lot of the regionals to mainline with Boeing 717 and Delta has an order of 100 737-900ER's due in.

Delta has a much larger fleet than Southwest ever had. While Southwest is a good airline for what it is, Delta serves much great number of flights to more markets and has full domestic and international coverage which Southwest does not have.

Delta will actually be the best for the regional coverage because unlike its counterparts, they have an active program to migrate existing regional coverage over to the 717's and that swapover will make Delta an airline like no other and Delta will be the best large scale global carrier in the USA bar none.

Delta has non assigned seating and assigned seating options depending on which class ticket you hold.

Southwest is a LOWER cost model, however Southwest will never have the scale of Delta and Southwest's route structures in the biggest markets is lacking.
We'll see. If they are flying more mainline, then they could be halfway decent. They still have their legacy of an entire magazine page of plane types, but that's a longer term project considering you can't just retire half your fleet in a year.

I might be wrong, but I doubt that we'll see Delta mainline service to many markets that Southwest doesn't serve. Southwest is efficient partly because they have a small, highly utilized, homogeneous (basically) fleet.
BiggAW is offline  
Old May 7, 13, 7:21 pm
  #279  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Between BDL and PVD
Programs: RapidRewards, SkyPesos, whatever flies where I want to go.
Posts: 270
Originally Posted by javabytes View Post
E fares do not allow advance seat assignments, and are completely non-changeable and non-refundable. These fares are discounted even further than standard discounted fares, are limited to certain test markets, and are clearly disclosed.

BLEH! That's like Delta but even worse. They assign you a seat. No thank you. I'd much rather pick a seat online than be told what seat to sit in. On Southwest, they are the best, you can pick any open seat you like.

Originally Posted by javabytes View Post
Perhaps you should not be so quick to dismiss First Class, and then tell us if flying is not a good experience.
Uneconomical. Apparently someone is buying the seats, but most of us don't have those kinds of bucks, or don't want to just waste those kind of bucks.
BiggAW is offline  
Old May 7, 13, 7:22 pm
  #280  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Bye Delta
Programs: AA EXP, HH Diamond, IHG Plat, Hyatt Plat, SPG Gold, MR Gold, Nat'l Exec Elite, Avis Presidents Club
Posts: 15,963
Sure, Amtrak works great for short-distance trips in the northeast. Not so well when you have to explain to your boss why it took you three days to get to SFO.
javabytes is offline  
Old May 7, 13, 7:23 pm
  #281  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,797
Originally Posted by javabytes View Post
E fares do not allow advance seat assignments, and are completely non-changeable and non-refundable. These fares are discounted even further than standard discounted fares, are limited to certain test markets, and are clearly disclosed.

For budget customers, Economy Basic is a good offering to reduce total expenses for those who want to take Delta flights. However, Economy comfort and even regular economy with assigned seating is better for those who must have a specific type of seat. 2 different types of customers.

Assigned seating likely will have less chance of getting bumped too I would think. I like assigned seating since there won't be any surprises, but on the other hand you may think some assigned seating no shows will go back into the pool and there could be good seats there. So you are paying a little extra for more certainty.
adamj023 is offline  
Old May 7, 13, 7:24 pm
  #282  
TTT
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: 45 North
Programs: DL DM MM, HH Diamond
Posts: 10,193
Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
Right now, you have to drive to the airport, park and take a plane. Mass transit isn't going to help everyone directly, but offering a good multi-modal transportation network will not only help some people directly, but free up capacity on the highways for others for whom the mass transit doesn't work.
Efficient mass transit would be great but that includes air travel. Air travel is a necessary part of life at this point. Look at efficient countries with developed high-speed rail. There is still a need for air transportation.
Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
Assigned seats, first class, and the resulting lower utilization of their planes because of long turnaround times.
Are you adjusting the aircraft utilization numbers for stage length? And are you only looking at Delta's domestic operation (as of course their international operation would skew the numbers greatly).

Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
Assigned seating is not only a PITA, and annoying, but it adds time to the boarding process, which is annoying, and causes fewer flights per day with the same aircraft, which is waste, and drives costs up. I feel like a broken record, but people just don't seem to get the way the Southwest model works, and why it is superior.
Originally Posted by MS02113 View Post
Many passengers simply will not put up with unassigned and/or coach-only seating. Why is this so difficult for you to grasp? If DL eliminated these two features tomorrow, its most profitable customers (read: business travelers) would flock to UA, AA, or US, not WN.
MythBusters did a special on aircraft boarding a while ago. They found that while no assigned seats and random boarding is the fastest it is the least popular. To quote Adam "humans like structure" and the assigned seats provide that structure. Your opinion that assigned seats are a PITA does not seem to be shared by the majority of the population.

Full length video (from somewhat dubious Russian sight) http://video.yandex.ru/users/videodiscovery-ru/view/44/ For those with Nextflix MythBusters Season 10, Episode 13
The random boarding, no seats starts around minute 43 with the full results following shortly after.

Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
LOL. Southwest's model is based on eliminating all the waste. When you operate more efficiently, you can offer lower prices, and people will buy tickets on your airline. Now Delta might start to compete more, since Southwest is often the online mainline airline to offer a lot of routes right now at airports like PVD, but Southwest's model will still come out on top. Southwest is a literal textbook model of efficient operations across industries.
The cost of airfare is rarely dependent of the cost of the operation. Airfare is largely determined by the market (supply and demand). This has been true since deregulation. The assumption that Southwest will offer cheaper flights because they have lower costs is false. If they have lower overall cost and attract the same revenue as other airlines they will have a better profit but don't kid yourself - their fares are determined by the market just like everyone else.
TTT is offline  
Old May 7, 13, 7:28 pm
  #283  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Between BDL and PVD
Programs: RapidRewards, SkyPesos, whatever flies where I want to go.
Posts: 270
Originally Posted by javabytes View Post
Sure, Amtrak works great for short-distance trips in the northeast. Not so well when you have to explain to your boss why it took you three days to get to SFO.
That wasn't part of the discussion. The discussion was Boston- New York, where the train is the obvious method, and flying isn't even a thought for most people, since it makes no sense.
BiggAW is offline  
Old May 7, 13, 7:31 pm
  #284  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Between BDL and PVD
Programs: RapidRewards, SkyPesos, whatever flies where I want to go.
Posts: 270
Originally Posted by TTT View Post
Efficient mass transit would be great but that includes air travel. Air travel is a necessary part of life at this point. Look at efficient countries with developed high-speed rail. There is still a need for air transportation.

Are you adjusting the aircraft utilization numbers for stage length? And are you only looking at Delta's domestic operation (as of course their international operation would skew the numbers greatly).


MythBusters did a special on aircraft boarding a while ago. They found that while no assigned seats and random boarding is the fastest it is the least popular. To quote Adam "humans like structure" and the assigned seats provide that structure. Your opinion that assigned seats are a PITA does not seem to be shared by the majority of the population.

Full length video (from somewhat dubious Russian sight) http://video.yandex.ru/users/videodiscovery-ru/view/44/ For those with Nextflix MythBusters Season 10, Episode 13
The random boarding, no seats starts around minute 43 with the full results following shortly after.



The cost of airfare is rarely dependent of the cost of the operation. Airfare is largely determined by the market (supply and demand). This has been true since deregulation. The assumption that Southwest will offer cheaper flights because they have lower costs is false. If they have lower overall cost and attract the same revenue as other airlines they will have a better profit but don't kid yourself - their fares are determined by the market just like everyone else.
There is still a need for mid- and long-haul flights, as well as some shorter haul connector flights to feed long- haul, but short-haul routes would be replaced by rail travel. Multi-modal transport is important, and that includes linking the airports to the rail systems.

Well, if Grandma wants structure, fine. The new generation of flyers embraces Southwest's model a lot more.

True, Southwest charges more during popular weeks. But lower operational costs allow them to offer some ridiculously cheap airfares to backfill capacity, and using the Low Fare Calendar, you can get some seriously cheap flights.
BiggAW is offline  
Old May 7, 13, 7:33 pm
  #285  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Bye Delta
Programs: AA EXP, HH Diamond, IHG Plat, Hyatt Plat, SPG Gold, MR Gold, Nat'l Exec Elite, Avis Presidents Club
Posts: 15,963
Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
That wasn't part of the discussion. The discussion was Boston- New York, where the train is the obvious method, and flying isn't even a thought for most people, since it makes no sense.
Except for all the people who apparently think it makes enough sense that DL runs an hourly shuttle between Boston and New York - 16 flights and 1,216 passengers a day in each direction.
javabytes is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread