kipper

Unfortunately, in some threads, or forums (not saying the DL forum), saying, "I feel" results in comments that indicate that some people don't care how others feel, they just care about themselves. That's probably a commentary on society as a whole, rather than just on FT, unfortunately. I too was taught to use "I feel" rather than, "you did" statements, but then again, there are some who I feel are too wrapped up in themselves to care even just a bit about others, be it those posting to FT or those they encounter in their travels.

RichMSN

I appreciate your comments. I suppose I deserve this to a certain degree by standing for and winning election to TalkBoard. But I'm just answering honestly as many others have done on this thread.

My time is short. Right now I have a day job, a family, I officiate HS and college football, and a bunch of other things going on. I'm going to spend time where I enjoy spending time.

I still frequent other boards on FT, I just don't come around here too often. Clearly I still come around as I saw this thread this morning.

I'm mostly tired of 2 types of posters:

(1) DL can do no wrong (I could post the most outrageous behavior by a DL employee and there's a group of people who would try to figure out how to blame me)

(2) SM should only be a program that benefits high dollar customers and to hell with everyone else

I think back to the days when the SSM movement actually meant something -- something most posters seemed to rally behind -- and I just don't think such a thing would be possible today.

I see some of this same behavior on other boards, but around here it's just gotten a lot worse over the past couple of years.

Canarsie

There have been some good comments posted to this discussion. Thank you for keeping it civil.

I am not looking to moderate the tone of this forum — that would be close to impossible, as would attempting to change the culture of a company or empty the ocean with a spoon. Rather, I am seeking to bring awareness to one’s own behavior when posting and responding — to take a moment to please ask yourself this question: “What can I do to help improve the tenor and tone of the Delta SkyMiles forum?” I ask myself that question constantly whenever I post.

Also, please take note of constructive feedback and think about how it can be used to improve posting behavior.

Please keep the feedback coming. Thank you again.

roknroll

mtkeller hits it on the head.

Those "definitive" threads are misleading. The title makes it seem like it's the definitive information post. But rather, most of them are the "definitive discussion" threads. I think there's value in both types of posts, for example the Economy Comfort or Upgrade Chances threads are good ongoing discussions where people can ask about their specific situations and get feedback (without cluttering the rest of the forum). Other threads, like the "SDC" or "Searching for low tier BE" are would benefit from having relevant information and policies in the first post. The low tier business thread does sort of have this, but it's slightly out dated and could benefit from having a few more pieces of info added in.

I feel that moderators shouldn't hold back on editing the first posts of these types of threads. Leave the OP intact, but you can qualify any addition with a "moderator note/addition" and fill in information after the OP.

Canarsie

I cannot divulge details at this time, but there are potential technological improvements currently being evaluated and considered for FlyerTalk that should address your comments if they are implemented.

Please be patient and stay tuned...

TheRoadie

One issue I haven't seen mentioned yet is specific posters with poor impulse control. Sometimes noobs, but sometimes not. Young in real age or just young in spirit. I use the ignore list sparingly, and perhaps that's because I moderate other forums and HAVE to read everything.

Does it pester the mods too much to use the "report this post" button? Is it an annoyance if you get a dozen reports about a post, or is it the case that everybody thinks somebody ELSE is reporting a post so they don't and then you get zero report?

I'm also astonished that we have the chance to embed pictures now and almost nobody's doing it, but that's OT for this thread.

DLroads

There is a lack on few elements
1. Search function (technology) that does not allow good search on the forum. I actually use google.com and in "advance" limit the search to the forum's pages to find info I need.
2. Civics- Well, some users 'march to their own drums', which are sometimes... very strong. nuff' said
3. Thread titles/content that is not up to date. Occasionally it's better to actually lock and let an old thread 'dive' to pp. 1000 over adding new content. Adding to the title: Now locked, last updated on... may help.
4. Separating info from opinions, and discussion; and separating time specific info from fixed point info. Don't have solutions for that, but it becomes a growing challenge.
5. Count to 10 before you post? (I count to 20).
6. Linear responses (1 post to 1 post), I guess we should have a workshop on multiple quotations (especially in the same subject). That would make the discussion slightly more concentrated.
7. General civics (#2): Let's agree that even if we do not agree, we do not get extremely sarcastic, or off topic. Same applies to new users questions (either to FT or new to DL).
8. Let's agree to give the mods some discretion in merging, 'cleaning' and rearranging some threads to get the 'flow' more organized. There is going to be a learning curve and we will not all like all decisions in the interim. But, let's try that for 2 weeks.

Canarsie

Speaking for myself, its use does not pester me at all. In fact, I encourage its use.

Furthermore, it has been renamed to alert a moderator — not report content — to reflect that it can also be used for suggestions, like merging or moving threads.

All I ask is that this functionality is not abused or overused.

mother-

This is by far the worst problem here: Griefers. I've never had to use an ignore list on a forum before, and here I've so far put nypd, KLM, and bubba on one just so I could casually read this forum.

The DL Apologists who jump down the throat of any complainer / new poster are a close second.

Basically this forum seems to be filled with people that think this is talk radio/Fox News/MSNBC, and they should behave as asshattily as is the norm there.

PS Talking about CFAs location or tastiness is no more appropriate on this forum then talking about their evilness or unhealthiness... IMHO that entire thread should have been moved somewhere else after the first post.

Dovster

Firstly, I don't think the tone of this forum is particularly bad -- especially in comparison to when I first joined FT. That was back in the days of the "Delta loyalists" vs the "SSM" crowd. Posters on both sides were really out for blood then.

(That war ended when Delta, at least under Grinstein's reign, adopted most of what the SSM people were urging. It became impossible to be both a Delta loyalist and to oppose SSM at that point.)

That said, yes, there are some uncomfortable posts and threads on the forum today. Guess what? Without them, this would be a very boring forum. Who the heck wants to post on any forum where everybody else is posting the same thing and in in complete agreement?

One thing I think that would relax tensions a bit is not to remove slight off-topic or humorous posts/threads. Comic relief is a very important part of the most serious drama.

I often feel that if William Shakespeare were to post on the Delta Forum about the tragic deaths of two star-crossed lovers (perhaps a NW pilot and a Delta FA driven to suicide by the intolerance of both groups), the forum mods would feel it necessary to either delete Sampson's play on words about "the heads of the maids, or their maidenheads; take it in what sense thou whilt" -- or at least move it to the Delta Lounge.

MSPeconomist

At the risk of using my post #3 in this thread today, my comments were meant to be thoughtful and ideally cause RichMSN to come back and participate more in the FT DL forum, where his previous contributions have been missed by myself and others. I wasn't "not approving and criticizing" and certainly not "insulting" but hoping to have him reconsider his stance.

However, I do think that a Talk Board Member has some implicit leadership and participation responsibilities on FT that go beyond those of ordinary members. Withdrawal in this case from the person's primary/only FF program airline forum should be a last resort after first trying to do something to improve the forum in question. If everyone with specialized knowledge and experience just leaves without trying to fix anything, what would become of FT? Many forums experience similar problems, at least from time to time (sometimes when there are program changes or rumors we don't like), but just giving up and going away isn't a good initial response by someone who cares and can contribute.

ADDED. So by your standard, I should just leave now?

atldlff

First and foremost, we have a very diverse crowd in this forum which is a good thing… it allows different views on a wide variety of topics and can often be thought provoking and even some times entertaining. I have certainly learned a great deal from this forum over the years and I have truly enjoyed meeting so many FT members over the years. I know from experience FT member have always been respectful, thoughtful and genuinely fun and engaging when we meet face to face.

I think the hostility perception in a large way is based on personal attacks whether it aimed at another member or someone at Delta. In my opinion, those attacks are unnecessary and serve no useful purpose. It is difficult to refrain from being defensive when you feel like you are under attack. Simply stating we should have a more respectful and considerate approach, obviously won’t make that happen.

I applaud the efforts of many members of this forum that have taken the effort and time to present information in a more concise and useful manner, engage in healthy debates, and share their feedback in a courteous manner. Well done, we need more of that on here! The FAQ Sticky thread is a great idea, but I know it is difficult to maintain and keep up to date. Perhaps there are members of this forum that have a passion on one topic or another and would volunteer to provide Canarsie with updates that would benefit everyone. There are so many “pearls of wisdom” buried in this forum.

Finally, I think one of the core elements of this forum that is missing and is a source of frustration for many, is the ability to provide constructive feedback and know that your voice has been heard by Delta. I often engage with many different groups at Delta and I can tell you that FT feedback, along with other mediums, is taken into consideration and has led to some of the improvements in the overall customer experience – particularly with customer facing service employees. Would an interactive conversation with Delta principally on the topic SkyMiles program be more useful? Certainly, and perhaps that will happen at some point, but I honestly don’t see that happening anytime in the near future.

Condensed version:

• Embrace the forum diversity and be respectful
• Avoid personal attacks
• Get engaged and help others
• Despite the lack of two way communications, your voice is often being heard

RichMSN

There's more to FT than the airline forum boards, though. They're just one piece of what makes FT great. I've frequently said I "stayed for the community." MY point is this -- if I don't feel a sense of community, why should I participate?

And as I've been told many times (usually in reference to moderators) -- we're all just members first and foremost.

5khours

When the mileage program is terrible, you are going to have a lot of complaints and a very negative tone. No getting around that. Same thing has started to happen on the UA board with the deprecation of many features and benefits that were well liked by the FF community.

mattsteg

Now that this thread has had a chance to develop, there's more that has come up that I have a fairly strong opinion on, and in some cases people have advocated for two opposite strategies. It's worth exploring these deeper.

First of all, there's the question of "definitive threads" and lumping all similar discussions into one colossal reference thread. I tend to dislike this approach, although it certainly has its place, and helps to manage a very active forum. Discussions get lost, newcomers' posts and questions get sucked up and the topic shifted by people instead replying to something from 2 months or years past, etc. Maybe some people feel stomped on if their thread gets merged with one they don't think equivalent. On top of this, now you have this giant "definitive" thread, perhaps with irrelevant, out of date, or minimal information in the first few pages. An "outsider" may come in, see this giant unmanageable agglomeration of a thread, and be overwhelmed and either start a new thread or just give up. I think wrapping everything up into big threads actually drives an increase in "basic" or repetitive posts, because the information ends up in an unfriendly, confusing place that you cannot easily search for (or scan the forum thread list for).

A lot of people are not going to have any desire to sift through an 80 page thread to find their answer. Personally, I have no issue with the same general topic coming up in different threads, and think that approach is a lot friendlier to less-engaged posters. Certainly combine threads about i.e. a specific news story or threads with collections of relevant data, but maybe it makes more sense to rethink the aggressive thread combination and living with more duplicates. There's much more community in collections of 5-20 post threads than there is in a giant commingled stream of them all jumbled together.

Of course, this gives the uppers and downers ever more platforms to trumpet how Delta is awesome or terrible.

There was also the question of off-topic threads - again, if the discussion flows naturally to off-topic subjects, particularly if the original question has been answered, I see little to no harm in letting them continue in peace. Unless the entire forum gets flooded with hundreds of "Double Diamond" threads and similar, why bother with moving/moderating them? I guess my general outlook is summed up by "don't moderate something unless you absolutely need to". Offtopic threads and threads going offtopic are part of what make a forum community a community. Especially with Flyertalk being so large, and many/most posters picking and choosing where they participate, I think it's important to let such "social" threads be. Moving something off to Omni, for example, when half of the participants may not ever go, and many don't even have the option, would seem to build resentment rather than community.

If everything's always on topic and regimented, there's no community. If the majority of what the fanboys, apologists, Deltahaters, elitists, newbies, etc. have to talk about is contentious subject matter, that can certainly build a toxic atmosphere. I've been drawn in to snarky comments before that I probably shouldn't have, for sure.

A better way to deal with the regular/controversial topics that come up would probably to have an abbreviated and simplified set of sticky threads that do not require reading 20 pages to get up to speed. Easy to link to in a thread rather than combining a million posts together, and easy to draw attention to on the front end.

It'd also help if people weren't more polarized about DL than american politics, and if there was just a little less pessimism regarding the current state of award redemptions. Availability may be sketchy and the tools are terrible, but if FBATR is the alternative that "solves" those issues, I don't want it.